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The Major Problem with Wildstar is that it will be Too Skill Dependent

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Sandmoth, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I noticed that too.....besides the fact that Baz says "this post answered my questions", when that was pointed out a week ago and linked in the 3 post of that other thread.
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  2. Perigon

    Perigon Cupcake

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    Battlefield is extremely skill dependent, as is COD to a slightly lesser extent. Look at how popular those games are.
  3. Drokk

    Drokk Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd be careful comparing to other genres. It's not very relevant. You don't grind gear in a fps. You don't have an advantage (or disadvantage) from gear. That's a huge difference.
  4. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    Depends on what FPS your using. The current gem shooters (COD and BF4) seem to like to use the unlock grind. Where CS:GO brings it to pure 100% skill.

    I think that the game that are based on skill take time to get going at first because a lot if the next gen gamers are used to everything handed to them or instant gratification.
  5. Axar

    Axar New Cupcake

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    I would gladly replace my almost 50 keybinds I had in WoW, for less of it, and more action on the screen.
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  6. Rooly

    Rooly New Cupcake

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    WOW was/is the freak of the genre and as is widely accepted, its success is unlikely to be seen again. Since then AAA MMO's have mostly tried to appeal to as broad a population as possible by catering for the lowest common denominator. This hasn't generally worked.

    What I find refreshing is that Carbine are taking the approach that they don't want to cater for the lowest common denomiator, they are quite happy to rule out a portion of the MMO community by making the game more demanding. I think the general assertion that it will be 'too skill dependent ' is one too far, although obviously it is relative to an individual. I think you can say without much doubt that the game will be more skill dependent than MMOs like WOW in their current state. As for this generally being a major problem - no, I don't think it is. This is what Carbine are aiming for, this is one of the USPs of the game.

    I concede that this will be a problem for those players who will be a little overwhelmed by the mechanics of the game. Unfortunately, this game is not aimed at those people though and that is one of the risks that Carbine are taking. Whether it pays off or not is yet to be seen!
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  7. Ianpact

    Ianpact Cupcake-About-Town

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    Warrior thinks short bald man speaks much truth. He speaks truth and not be jerkface too. Warrior thinks short bald man is wise and kind. :D


    Also, he kinda looks like bunny.
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  8. Galium

    Galium Cupcake

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    I personally do not think that it is just 1% of the population that wants to be challenged while playing a game, be that while you explore, while you do 40 man raids, while you solo, while you level, while you get achievements, pvp, etc. I would like to think that is most players want to be challenged.

    If you do not want the challenge of something new, then why leave your old game?
  9. Syn

    Syn Cupcake

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    Personally, I welcome the WildStar style of play. I welcome the LAS, I don't see it as an issue. The hand-holding in MMOs needs to end, its killing the genre. I like the approach they are taking with this game, teaching the player for what comes next. I don't see any issues with this at all, even as a "filthy casual".
  10. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Because new experience != equal challenge? Why would you continue to read fantasy books when basically all of them are alike? Or watch comic book movies? For the most part people want what they like, not something new. Its why even when giving us something new they go out of their way to make sure it feels familiar.
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  11. Irullan

    Irullan Cupcake

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    Making a game focused solely on the amusement of top tier raiders and pvpers isn't the way to make a game have staying power. Those audiences are exceedingly fickle (to quote DNT referencing SWTOR in a recruitment post "We played until we didn't"). The first boss was buggy, spells had misfire issues that turned off serious PvPers... and there was nothing really to do once you got to the top, so those communities left. More than catering to a certain audience only, a game needs to have polish, an immersive quality, and something for everyone, at any stage of the game. Other games miss the mark on those criteria.

    We have seen so much hype from MMOs in the past. People are aching for Wildstar to succeed. I think it has the best chance of any game that has come along BECAUSE it is challenging. People want an epic fight. Serious or casual, players want to be pushed to their limits and learn new things. They want to be immersed, and they want to be committed to the world. I think Wildstar has all those things- and it isn't just going to benefit the top tier of player.
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  12. WavE

    WavE Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok, I can already tell this is going to be something everyone has a strong opinion on. And that's cool, balance in games is one of the biggest topics we come across from both a design and player standpoint.

    All that in mind though there's something else you have to understand about balance which I think the video provided by the OP didn't cover. High level balance.

    I'll start with an example that continues the parable they began. For a game like call of duty and it's noob tube, the gun was very powerful. As xtra credits put it, it's power to skill ratio had a high amount of power being output, and a low amount of skill being required. From a progression standpoint, this makes a lot of sense, as the new players have a way to be competitive, and the more veteran and skilled players have access to better over all tactics and moves, but require much more skill.

    So it's looking pretty good for CoD so far right? Well it is, until you get to high level play. The reason for this is because once you've mastered a game which can be considered competitive, you gain a third variable in your power /skill equation.

    That variable is "Meta", and it works out to look like this:

    Power
    ---------------- * Meta = Skill perceived
    Skill required

    When a high level of play is practiced, encouraged, and mastered both plays can be assumed to have if not the same level of skill, at least similar levels when it comes to the first two variables. So in competitions, and tournaments it's the third variable that often decides who is the champion.

    So what is meta? Quite simply it's your knowledge of the game outside the game. Strategies and tactics in a well designed game, don't stay the same when you reach the end of the progression path. No they evolve, and change, and even encourage the progression path to continue often beyond what the original designers had planned for. Starcraft, various fighting games, and even board games like Go are excellent examples of this, where mechanical and technical skill can even become outweighed by your meta game skill and/or knowledge.

    The summary is quite simple, Wildstar's initial skill requirement is fairly high compared to most other mmo's we've seen. A better way to put it is it's power to skill ratio might be a bit lower then what some casual players expect. But the carbine team isn't too concerned about that, because they realizes that there has been enough saturation of lower skilled similar games to skip that initial easing in a little in theirs (like expecting someone to have played super mario brothers, and just start on a game like rayman legends or super meatboy).

    Because their skill cap is a little harder to reach though, as far as mastery of their game goes, they're also banking on the idea that the chance for a higher and more rich meta game evolves out of high level play then their contemporary's, both in PvE and PvP.

    Whether that will be the case we have yet to see, but the theory is sound enough for them to throw their companies time and resource at for it for several years until this point.
  13. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree...

    Being challenged is a good thing and I personally am looking forward to a new challenge when WildStar launches. I'm glad they are thinking about and including high skill game content. I'm just of the opinion that to have a great game there has to be more than server firsts.





    After all there are only so many of those to be had.:)
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  14. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hard content and Hard combat system isnt the same though.

    Content can be hard without a hard to learn combatsystem.
  15. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    How is the combat system hard to learn? If anything I would say its easy to learn and hard to master.
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  16. Stich

    Stich Cupcake

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    probably the only time i agree with you, easy to learn hard to master, those who played GW2 for more than a week will have a slight advantage due to the similar combat system but, they wont have it for long XD
  17. Sandmoth

    Sandmoth New Cupcake

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    Now I am more interested in how gaining skill should progress in a game.

    I don't think player skill progression should be a linear straight line graph because that leaves to big a difference between highly skilled players and lesser skilled players. I also don't think players skill progression should be based on a logarithmic graph because that doesn't leave a big enough gap between highly skilled players and lesser skilled players. Player skill progression should probably be based on a root function graph. This way highly skilled player beat lesser skilled players, but they don't completely dominate them into oblivion. This leaves the lesser skilled players feeling like they can compete. As for low skilled players, they just need to get better.
  18. Plantex

    Plantex New Cupcake

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    What is it exactly that looks difficult about this game? Telegraphs and the limited action set both seem to be pretty big crutches for new players. I'll be shocked if the content that is intended for all players (leveling, easier pve, unranked casual pvp) is not something everyone can handle.

    Also, why should new players stand a chance against the most skilled players? As an average at best pvper, I don't mind getting destroyed by the occasional pro player I run into as long as I get a chance to show off my lesser abilities and outplay a player closer to my level. Any game worth playing should have a near limitless skillcap, otherwise noone will play it for long. Should chess be more like tic tac toe so everyone can compete? Should I be able to go 1 on 1 with Kobe or run an offense like Peyton Manning? Hell no. Games of all kinds are just platforms for players to show off their skill and creativity. Having a high skillcap and being hard is what makes games worth playing.
  19. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    You aren't taking into account the effects of gear and the general "feeling" of being good vs bad. How many poorly skilled players blame their defeat on luck/rng/gear rather than being poorly skilled?
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  20. Raptrix

    Raptrix New Cupcake

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    I think you are then branching in to player mentality and slightly away from the original point of overly complicated skill systems? Though i do see the cause/effect and neg response that we do see in games.

    I do agree that kit, luck and even class rolling can be scape goats for a perceived unfair loss, looking at the current stalker it is easy to understand why.

    Looking at the game, Carbine do seem to have put a large emphasis on player awareness of environment both with multitier levels/terrain and also unique telegraphic. Their aim being to try and increase skill with play time.

    The earlier vid on 'foo' strat is pretty much for a wide variety of games, even earlier games such as WoW, set combo or macro that people reeled off time after time after time.

    Overall, I can see what he is saying regarding the game appearing overly skill based elitism but I think that there are alot more factors involved and that Carbine have, right from the start, had this on radar in all the material discussion for game progression.

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