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The Major Problem with Wildstar is that it will be Too Skill Dependent

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Sandmoth, Dec 28, 2013.

  1. tron850

    tron850 New Cupcake

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    [/quote]


    so let me get this straight. you are under the impression that this game, a game that has had years of development, tons of testing in and outside of the company, and millions of dollars invested toward success, has overlooked the fundamentals of actually being playable to the masses.... yea, that concept blew right past me?

    you really think this game is too complex? moving a mouse while holding a button down with a clear on the ground target field is too hard for people similar to yourself and the masses? that is what you are saying. either you are severely underestimating the mass majority of gamers or you are basing this off yourself in which case perhaps pong is more toward your skill set.

    people have been screaming for a game like this for years. they want smooth player controlled combat that is skill based and not fully determined by a formula and RNG. in reality this game is no more complex for the most part than GW2, the only real difference is that now you can see the fields and now all your attacks are based on fields you control.

    i really wish someone would just lock this forum, if the game is too hard for you to play, play a different game. dont make random threads complaining that you want a game dumbed down before it even launches, because the mass majority of players like challenge in their games, not tab 1, 2, 3, tab.
    Greatheart and Syn like this.
  2. Merganser

    Merganser New Cupcake

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    Whups. The "blew past you" comment wasn't something I typed. It was said by the guy I quoted and I didn't remove it properly.

    As to the skill level required in Wildstar, I made no judgements. I was simply explaining the concepts of non-linear skill progression and player ability spectrum tuning to someone who was having difficulty grasping them.

    If you want an example of a years-in-the-making, high budget game that borked that up somewhat, SWTOR did something of that ilk. (Although this wasn't the only issue.) Their progression and endgame was tuned to the average player, not the hardcore end. That sounds fine when you just look at the overall population, but the issue was that the people who make reviews that a game is judged by are at the hardcore end. Thus the game acquired a bad rep for having no/inadequate endgame despite this not being much of an issue for the average, moderately skilled, few hours a week player.
  3. King Radinov

    King Radinov Cupcake

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    I, for one, am looking forward to the more real time approach of WildStar after years of staring at Health bars to heal (maybe not that long). It seems like it should be more engaging. I can live with sucking at it for a while during the time I am getting used to it. It took me almost two month's before I was able to adequately use my Razer Naga without screwing up. If the game play is fun and engaging people will put in the time to improve their skills.
  4. Destian

    Destian Cupcake-About-Town

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    Still not sure why deflection is a thing in WS.

    What are RNG misses doing in a game where you aim attacks anyway?
  5. Dargenus

    Dargenus Cupcake-About-Town

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    To keep it from being a completely twitch-dependent game, probably. It's still an RPG at the end of the day.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  6. Merganser

    Merganser New Cupcake

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    Possibly also for item stat variety.
  7. MotownRocks

    MotownRocks New Cupcake

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    Excellent point. Determining who has the best skill is appropriate for a tournament. Pro sports have seasonal tournaments to determine the best, but then re-balance skill every year by awarding the worst teams the first picks of a draft. The mantra of every professional league is parity. This is not possible in an mmo.

    But the most popular and most addicting games by far are ones where chance plays a large or completely determining factor. Every roll of the dice, luck of the draw, spin of the wheel, or yank on the arm of a slot machine can determine a winner. The doubt of the outcome of a match is what creates the interest and excitement. To do away with that by constructing a paradigm where skill trumps uncertainty is to kill participation.
  8. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    You raise a good point about the unknown and how important it is to enjoyment. However, it is not so that the more unknown/random something is the more people enjoy it, rather this is a balance between the unknown and the controlled (known). It's a balance between expectation and the possibilities, and often relies on the expectation OF the possibilities. How much skill determines things is in contrast to automated non-decisions (stats, animation, auto attack), which by itself is not in direct opposition of "chance" but rather is a part of "how control is achieved". In other words, increasing the effect of player decisions (i.e. skill) will necessarily decrease the effect of automated non-decisions, but will not inherently affect the unknown part of the game unless specifically implemented.

    Wall of text incoming!

    Using your examples, gambling often relies exclusively on luck, however that doesn't mean expectation is any less of a factor here, as these two balance on all levels --- If there's no expectation to "win" whatsoever, how many people will roll the dice all day long for nothing? In this case the expectation/anticipation and the unknown are very clearly decoupled, but nevertheless they're still both essential aspect of enjoyment. If someone rolls a dice and wins all the time, he'll be bored. But if someone rolls a dice and never wins, he'll get frustrated. If this person wasn't even told that there's a "win" in this "game", he probably won't even bother doing it to begin with.

    Now onto second point, given that there's a dice game, "skill dependent or not" simply means whether if you have the choice to throw the dices i.e. perform an action and see the expected results. If dices just jump on their own without you and simply inform you N hours later if you've won something, naturally you won't put nearly as much anticipation into it. Spin the wheel, luck of the draw, yank on the arm of a slot machine, are all very basic archetype of "games" --- player controlled input, anticipation for an expected result, coupled with a unknown risk. More advanced "games" involve a further factor --- a variance in the "player controlled input" factor. An examples of these games is rock paper scissors. Your input is now complex, instead of one option you have many options, and each with corresponding consequences depending on the situation and the unknown (opponent), it doesn't minimize any risk BUT provides fun just on the basis of having control. Now the next step is adding system feedback, that is, players not only control an action but is presented with new information from which he can base his judgement on, examples of these games are chess, various card games, etc. From this step onward, there is such a thing called "skill" --- because "skill" refers to correct judgement, and this simply doesn't happen until the player can observe causal relations between his action and the outcome and be able to at the same time expect outcome based on perceived environment. Having good skills will minimize your risk but NEVER zeroing it even theoretically, as any mathematician will tell you. Also because the game is now nested, risk can compound at multiple levels --- being hit vs not hit is a risk, being hit a little vs being hit a lot is a higher level risk in a "mini-game" layer right above the first one, etc. Just from my description, you see that the word "expectation" pops up at multiple places when we talk about chess, in fact when a game reaches this level of complexity (and beyond), "mini-game" happens at multiple levels and each have its balance of the unknown vs control, these layers also balance around themselves at large. Being able to enjoy such a setup is obviously a much needed trait for survival, taking risk for a reward but minimizing risk according to previous knowledge. The fact that this is a complex process with many layers means that given the fluid nature of human attention and cognition in general, a fine balance can be achieved in many different format --- Top raiders can have everything min-maxed but still feel extremely excited/anxious in a raid, new gamers can just slash around in lowbie areas blindly but still feel like he's in control because he sees that he click = he slash = mob hp drops.

    So in order to maximize fun, precisely because there are many layers, increasing the risk at all levels can offset the loss of some unknown in other levels. Example: challenging contents make the pro gamers happy, who knows the in and out of things and only have 1% chance of being hit anyways, but now this 1% could cost them their lives, suddenly the stake is high enough. Also, multi-player games have inherent unpredictability due to multiple subjective human beings, no matter how much you expect the fight to go, you can't 100% predict your teamates'/opponents' next move. Some PvE groups are so organized that they minimized the unknown even in coorporation, so if you let them do easy raids over and over they'll be bored yes, but that's why they go for hard raids. Also, a particular rogue in that group could be focused on beating everyone else in dps meter etc, and that kind of challenge is always present no matter how outgeared they are for the content.

    Now back to topic, in mmos, "skill" is in opposition to "automated". A game that doesn't require skill for example, will allow newbies to spam autoattack and not move yet beat the boss. A game that does require skill however, will differentiate players --- the better players can kill the boss even easier, but the worse players will die to the boss. So it's a variance added on to the same mean, instead of increasing the mean itself. You're suggesting that if a game is not skill-dependent then the chance is more uncertain --- That's rarely the case, if skill is not important in a game, automated combat takes over (stats count as this as well) and the players will still win. Hence you see, the only problem that introducing skill dependency will bring inherently is inequality amongst players --- And just like in human societies, while we recognize that people should be paid for their effort and contribution, we also recognize the problem of wealth gap/inequality. As the OP pointed out.

    In my opinion however, while of course inequality is a problem, I highly doubt Wildstar will be anywhere near that threshold. Even the most skill-based games out there today doesn't compare at all against the power differences in some P2W games.
  9. Narwrynn

    Narwrynn New Cupcake

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    I'm not worried about Wildstar being too difficult. While Wildstar's combat looks like some of the fastest-paced movement heavy combat you will ever find in a game, Wildstar also does exactly what that video suggests.

    You will probably find at the start of the game that moving, while useful, in combat actually slows leveling. Why dodge attacks that won't kill you anyway? Why not just focus on DPS? However you will quickly find that moving is a must in combat and be forced to learn as you progress in the game. You'll see telegraphs and learn what they mean. What does a red tele moving closer to the caster mean? What does a red tele moving away from the caster mean? Is it better to back paddle to step out of certain telegraphs or should you always turn and run?
    This all seems like information you will learn in Wildstar just by virtue of playing. Dungeons will all have movement and telegraphs and so will raids so the step up in difficulty will be a natural flow.

    Lets compare that to WoW. So let me drop a few credentials here so people know it is an informed opinion. In code to keep it condensed.
    Code:
    I played WoW from late vanilla to early MoP. During that time I raided casually in TBC semi-hardcore in wrath (guild was in top 15 or so for ICC on Emerald Dream) and very seriously in Cata, Guild was server first on Emerald Dream for Heroic Ragnaros  (The guild was Sanctus if you were wondering) 
    WoW's heroic, and even some of the none heroic, raids were extremely movement intensive and very challenging, which is why even though floods of people complained that it was too easy very few ever did heroic raids. The reason so few do heroic raids is because the way combat plays in heroic raids is drastically different from the rest of the game. The rest of the game, leveling, dungeons, heroic dungeons, and LFR are all very simple low movement sorts of things so when heavy movement gets thrown in the mix no one knows what they are doing. In early cata they made heroic dungeons fairly challenging and demanded a totally different play style than what players had been doing but where forced to nerf the content in response to the complaints. The problem even that was too late CCing and movement are pretty much completely useless the entire time you level and just standing still maxing your DPS will pull you through anything.

    But more than that symbols in WoW mean nothing to a player. A blue ring on the ground in one fight might be the only safe place to stand but in another be a death trap. So combat never feels intuitive it is always either requires some meta-gaming to figure out what that glyph means or a failed trail run to see what it does. And guess what meta-gaming pre heroic raids is pretty much useless. No information will make a large difference before that om your performance and where it does you can still easily overcome it. Also the DPS requirements to beat enrage timers are very strict and require proper itemization. So on top of movement WoW also tosses on meta-gaming.

    TL;DR
    Again contrast this to Wildstar where the movement plays a part even from the early stages and where a red telegraph is always bad. How intuitive will proper itemization be, I'll have to wait and see. Where as other games, like WoW, also require movement and understanding game mechanics both introduce these in very different ways.
  10. Jinzouningen

    Jinzouningen Cupcake

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    Well i'm for more skill and more challenging play anyway.

    If you dont want more skill or the ability to chain and make "complicated" techniques then I'm 100% positive theres a game for you.

    its like me going to hello kitty island forums and asking why there isnt a class that uses lasers and shoots hadokens..
  11. Jinzouningen

    Jinzouningen Cupcake

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    *cough cough ..Wow..cough* yeah i remember the great dumbing down. All i can assume is the devs there just said screw it lets see what the forums want then added EVERYTHING anyone whined about.

    So now in that game you have tanks that only need to tap a mob and keep threat on it forever. All dps can just full out or nothing at all..because of course you arent pulling threat off the tank. (i'm from the days of Omen where bad dps meant you pulled threat off of the tank because you werent controlling your dmg, healers had to heal smart because if you just threw them out ..like you do now..you pulled threat and tanks had to actively grab and keep aggro on top of knowing when to use mitigating skills..

    those days are gone..its all stand in one place, be teleported to a raid and smash one key..no matter the class.

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