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The Overpowered class

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by selodaoc, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Wildebeest

    Wildebeest Cupcake

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    Obviously you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, your frustrations are clearly based on WoW rogues and feral druids. Well guess what buddy, stalkers, A. Don't really have stealth, wildstar stealth is a form of "light distortion" if you are as good at the game as you are at rage/complaining you can actually see stalkers coming, the distortion becoming more and more obvious as they approach you. and B. their stealth is a form of gap closing and momentary reprieve, it is actually usable in combat without a vanish type ability, they are more of a positional, in your face, deal with it class than the wow one shotters.

    /endrant
  2. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    They do though as long as the stealther class is not overpowered. You can still win against a rogue in the middle of nowhere if he attacks you at least in wow after vanilla. I don't think anyone would argue against that, its a fair point. But its really a bad play on the stragglers part to lose the group imo.

    I look at lockdowns to be something that someone has to be very good at to pull off. It should not be too easy as it would be overpowered but it should be something that a player could do if they play flawlessly (yes I know its not always the case, with dmg, gear, blah blah, but I see this as the ideal way and I also mean this for any class not just rogues).

    Now for Wildstar

    I look forward to the LAS and hybridization of the classes.
    I see competitive gaming as a debate.
    when two get down its an argument on who has the better optimized layout. A good player knows his enemy, he knows other classes and can accommodate that to his build.

    My only fear is that cookie cutter builds will form and everyone will use them as that is the optimal layout. Its boring personally but hardly surprising.
  3. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hey Dirty,

    I wrote my post while very very tired and forgot to mention that it was directed towards Selo. My apologies.

    You bring up an interesting argument with your comments about lockdowns. I'm a firm believer that multi-CC lockdowns should not be able to be strung together until the death of an opponent. It is not fun to be the other player who is stuck in that position. I, much like other players, don't enjoy not playing the game while we're stunned.

    Now don't get me wrong, I think players need to be rewarded for good play, but I think that is the wrong type of reward. At least in Wildstar, the reward for skill will be landing the CC, or so I hope.

    As to the cookie cutter builds, that is a problem in every single MMO as it is a result of gaming's min/max culture. There are so many minute options in Wildstar, that it will be less of a problem, but it will still exist.
  4. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    I didn't think you were but I figured I add my 2 cents.
    On lockdown yes it's not fun for the victim wow cc shutdowns pales in comparison on some other games. I saw minute long cc on players on other mmos I could only imagine the rage.

    Should lockdowns be in a mmo short answer no long answer not in he form it's in.

    Like a stunned opponent in sf 2 a lockdown should be something for high level play and always leaves the losing opponent a chance for recovery and come back.

    One of reasons I am exited for wildstar is the break out gameplay. I hope carbine can deliver.

    But mmos are not fighting games and different things need to be considered.

    If landing attack are hard to do then having a cc work is a reward but if it's easy it is not.

    And last I hope there will be room for interpretation and not just straight builds but that until the theorycrafters can post stuff.
  5. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    I went from Shadowbane with some classes having access to 9+ second stuns to Vanilla WoW with early lockdown rogues dual wielding Mugs O'hurt(used to be a stun proc with a short internal cooldown), so my tolerance for lockdown is really low.

    Currently, Carbine's recipe is solid:
    1: skillshots
    2: breakout
    3: diminishing returns

    With these in place, lockdown likely won't even be a reliable option. When combined with the natural hybridization of the classes I think we'll be seeing a small, but important change in some of the MMO PvP class tropes.
  6. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Making the classes bland and pretty much do the same thing in the progress. Balancing by wiping out class definition makes for a boring recipe
  7. filanwizard

    filanwizard Cupcake-About-Town

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    I hope that is true that WS has enough tweaks to avoid "You must use this build or you are doing it wrong" syndrome. One should not have to go to sites like Elitist Jerks just to do optimal DPS, Because really lots of min/max stuff causes people to play by the numbers rather than really learning what their class can do when one thinks outside the box.

    I do agree though that min/max will still exist as every game will have people that play out everything in excel first.
  8. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well there will be some of it.

    For example, there will be an optimal Max Damage Output AMP/LAS/Tier build for every damage class. Its just how its going to be. A player will need X damage AMPs, using a specific 8 skills that are tiered a specific way. However this is a purely numeric optimal, and usually wouldn't include heals, CC's or AMP's that allow for more damage mitigation. These same numeric optimal sets will exist for heals and tanks as well with the same caveats.

    However, as stated, numeric optimal won't be game-play optimal and each player will be individually better with some abilities and it is impossible to quantify a players ability to land a skill shot. Some skills will be easier to use, and will provide a more guaranteed damage and as players we'll need to figure this out for ourselves.

    It isn't the same amount of flexibility as provided by Shadowbane or UO, but even those games had certain limits on player creativity.
  9. silvershadez

    silvershadez Cupcake

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    The onliest real PvP demonstration of stalkers I've seen from the "victim" point of view was in the esper livestream.

    I watched that scene more then 5 times straight because I really wanted to see the difference of their stealth mechanic compared to WoW.

    That distortion effect you were mentioning was there in WoW too. When a rogue was close enough you could see him (no matter what stealth detection you had). It works the same here in Wildstar. On the initial assaul I was not able to see any stalker behind Merkal (the warrior), because the esper was probably too far away. The other stalker that aimed for the esper went visible when he entered a certain (very small) distance.

    Making them able to get back into stealth in combat without huge drawbacks, will make their stealth probably even more OP then what we had in WoW.

    I can't see so many differences in wildstars stealth mechanic compared to the WoW one. I have to admit I just played WoW from beta to the end of TBC, so maybe there has changed something around their stealth mechanics.

    Particulary I agree that we havn't seen any "one-shot" fights yet, which is definitely some good change. But we can't really say how much this will change on max level with min/max builds and gear...
  10. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Adding skill shots and removing lock-down game play is not the same as removing class definition. If we wanted to be truly cynical, we could say that at the end of the day there is essentially no difference between a WoW mage, warlock and hunter. Both have cast time skills from range and fulfill the same DPS only roles with slightly different mechanics. Indeed, we could say the only difference between a rogue, hunter, mage and warlock is that the rogue is melee while the other three are ranged as they provide the same exact functionality with only the slightest differences in base game play functionality.

    But, that is a fallacious logic. It is like saying every Champion in League of Legends or DOTA that has skill shots is essentially the same. There is a vast difference in actual mechanics and functionality between the four classes I mentioned, much as there will be between the classes and specs in WildStar.

    I don't understand how removing the stealth/burst mechanic would water down the game play, class balance, or class variability at all. I know alternatives that would be entertaining have been proposed and I really hope that the LAS system mitigates this issue and that "The Dev's Are Listening," as there are too many people who recognize the difficulty that bursty stealth classes cause for class balance.

    From my understanding of the stealth mechanic, there will be an initial permanent stealth that we saw pre-combat, as well as a quasi-stealth that is only a slight graphical change that will not obscure the Stalker that provides access to abilities that are only usable from stealth. The system seems similar to the GW2 mechanic is a very basic way. Access to these abilities will be limited by the LAS, and they probably will not provide as much damage as other pure DPS abilities similar to the damage reductions applied to some forms of hard CC.
  11. Jakedog

    Jakedog New Cupcake

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    Let's wait until the Stalker Class Reveal and the Live stream in a couple weeks... Then speculate, deliberate? No, no... That'd be too easy.
  12. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    You ask for too much.
    Jakedog likes this.
  13. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Jakedog two things:

    1) This discussion has centered mostly around the place of stealth classes within an MMO environment for months.

    2) This is the internet, where we fight strawmen and ad hominems.
  14. Jakedog

    Jakedog New Cupcake

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    It just makes everything so complicated
  15. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    My favourite is the random poster who comes in and doesn't read any background posts and takes a shot that is obviously wrong and already been countered.

    I also see the same old rehashes of the same broken arguments. You've all played in Public BG's etc and know that players don't work as a team. its generally every man for themselves.

    Dirty

    Go back and read the posts which have listed the breakdown of teamplay of PUB's vs Premades rather than have me retype it.

    I hate to correct you again but I will as you don't seem to want to read other peoples prior posts before launching in too. Your point about rogues in WOW now is correct and is totally worthless and you feel they are well balanced now after the game launched in 2004.

    My standpoint is that the "stealthed" class ( I use that term because people get tunnel vision when you say rogue) was not balanced when it launched which is exactly the point I am making.

    They started off too hot too many cc's and WOW nerfed them hard because of the backlash. And yes Wow is not the only game where that has happened GASP.

    It happens in game after game after game and it will be interesting to watch how Carbine balance the class. I stand by my point that they will not do it well.
  16. Zeldias

    Zeldias New Cupcake

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    1) Never said it was cool or that's what it should be. I was just suggesting that invisible sharks (which is what Rogues tend to end up being, invisible high damage things that lurk) is pretty boring and obviously people hate that sort of thing because you just get popped and they exploit you. It'd be more interesting to have stealth or mobility be more part of the battle itself as opposed to being a binary now you see me, now you don't situation where if you don't, I'm probably gonna stab you in the kidney for tons of damage. Something like a GW2 Thief focused on mobility, maybe.

    2) What's up with dumbasses like you making outrageous assumptions about my intentions? I'm throwing out a thought for what I think would be interesting; unless we're secretly (extra-secretly, since even I don't know) are designing an MMO, then the thoughts I have are just thoughts. If you don't want to interact with them in a reasonable way, that's fine, but don't take shots at me.

    PS: While I played Rogue pretty often, I'm more of a tank aficionado, so nice try with the ad hominem, brah.
  17. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    Nice with the dumbass comment. I stand by the reality that you outlined a completely one sided battle as being in your words "cool". One where the class could totally dominate the other player at will and come and go as it pleased.

    Exactly the the style of play that myself and others were discussing as pointless but no you jump right in with your 2 cents then without reviewing the background.

    Kinda makes you look like the dumbass

    Cool story about the tank though
  18. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    Random bgs are what you get when you don't form a team sorry thems the breaks get a team if you don't want random pugs I fail to see why I need to read it again I stand by my posts. Random bgs are low tier pvp and in high tier pvp is not the case to have people go everyman for themselves. And balancing should be done in high tier pvp.

    Yeah wow in the beginning sucked for balancing but get this almost every class barely had one working spec so of course it sucked. And guess what warriors and shamans were also considered overpower you seen plenty of threads about warriors beating rogues easy those days too. And one more thing to consider rogues had the most advance resource system than any class with energy and combos, warriors had rage and everyone else had mana.

    As soon as the suck classes were fixed rogues were no longer an issue and the game was good the game has been fairly balanced the problem is that blizz keeps making a FOTM class every other patch. Course I would be lying if an xpac could ruin everything which has happen but honestly I fail to see stealthers as the cause since rogues are only at the top every once in a while and warriors are better and more represented in top play.

    Warriors and rogues were both beating everyone up not just rogues. You argue that stealth class ruin balance I argue it does not class balance is always bad hell runes of magic mages were op and rogues were not when it was out, And in Age of Conan rangers and barbarians ruled the low levels and the Tempest of set one shotted most players in high levels, the assassin the stealth class not really a big threat against them. so yeah stealthers are the cause of imbalance right.

    If stealhers were not in these games you think it would be any different I say it wouldn't change anything other than one less class to balance.
  19. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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  20. Bazeleel

    Bazeleel Cupcake-About-Town

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    I want to point out that it's not a full stealth stalker a are getting. The grass moves and they are not 100% invis.

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