Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by selodaoc, Aug 1, 2013.
Scissors are ok.
In that case, paper are rogues before nerf, and scissors after.
Rock are healers and mages
Well from what ive seen its more effective the longer away you are.
From a bit of distance they have 100% stealth, to beeing distorted at close range.
I wonder if you make footprints in snow?
Oh come now, I'm sure the devs are smart enough to balance / limit the class according to fair gameplay. And what "certain type of person" are you referring to? Sounds kind of like you are baiting him to reply in a negative way to me. lol
Corey, it is a long standing discussion as you can tell from the date of the first post.
Throughout this thread, the argument from Selo has always been that stealth classes are assassins, and need to do the things that Gamerz listed. In Gamerz defense he isn't baiting Selo as these things have already been said.
Gamerz is echoing my view point on stealth classes with permanent stealth: permanent stealth is difficult to balance, no matter how good the dev team is. There are always people like Selo who will not be happy with the compromises that need to be made to balance these types of classes, and there will always be players who despise being attacked by stealth classes and will never find them "fair" or balanced.
It is just a really difficult design to make work and keep people happy, and that is the main crux of this discussion: the preconceptions of what these classes "should" do vs the difficulty of making them balanced.
No doubt, I was really just speaking in good fun. I enjoy how people in this community can "debate" about things without arguing or fighting or insulting. At least that's what I've seen for the most part in my lurking about.
As far as stealth vs. non-stealth and burst DPS, it seems that in every MMO I've played (and that's a lot) there are good rogue players who can stun/burst/gank, etc. but there is always that other player of a different class who is really good at defying this sort of attack out of sheer hatred of the rogue class. Most decent games offer methods of mitigation and escape to the non-rogue classes that are more than fair. In WoW there were times when it was almost more frustrating to be a rogue since all it took was tossing out some surprise AOE and your so called OP stealth was gone and you were exposed.
Every stealth ability / skill that I've experienced has some sort of limitation, whether duration, cooldown, situational limitations, or otherwise. I don't think in any MMO it would be safe to say that the rogue's stealth or bust ability makes them OP, and I don't think that argument could ever really stand on it's own for very long.
Even with the permanent stealth classes, they are always gimped in some other way that balances this feature. Of course there will always be those who don't feel it's fair. I guess these are the people who simply have a hard time against this playstyle and who also don't want to switch to the rogue class themselves to take advantage of this so called OP ability. I guess I always assumed they really knew better and were just trying to get the devs to nerf rogues so they didn't have to die so much.
I digress. To each his own. You will always have the lovers and the haters.
I admit that there are potential solutions to what I'll call the "Rogue Problem," but they never satisfy anyone.
For me its less about them being overpowered or the difficulties of playing against them, and more about the difficulties that permanent stealth brings to the circus that is class balance.
Selo's passionate defense of how he wants the stealth class to feel is a perfect example of how strongly a a reaction balancing of a class can bring because of certain trope that exist from years of MMO development. It is my hope that Carbine breaks a lot of these tropes in much the same way they have been other aspects of their game, or at least have a good solution to the potential problems permanent stealth brings to balance.
This is where I fundamentally disagree you can remove stealth class doesn't make the game more balanced at all causation does not equal correlation.
This is where I would agree the big problem with stealth is that the people who play non stealth hate the class with a passion and generally want the class gone regardless if its balanced or not.
The question one would ask is would game have better standing if stealth classes exist and keep the people who love the class happy or better to alienate and possible lose players in order to keep more players happy with no stealth classes.
Here Dirty, I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying. I'm not asserting that removing stealth from the game makes it automatically balanced, I'm asserting that permanent stealth is too difficult to balance in an MMO setting when combined with burst damage while using that stealth mechanic. This combination only leads to dissatisfaction with the development team for "failing to balance Rogues correctly."
In fact, ArenaNet didn't intend to allow permanent stealth in GW2 yet players found how to make it happen. Not only that, in the current iteration of their stealth system it doesn't work entirely as intended and the Thief class is a constant point of contention in the community.
There is definitely something here Dirty(even though you disagree with my assertion about the difficulty to balance stealth), however I think that the reverse problem is true: If a game didn't include a stealth class it runs the risk of alienating a huge portion of the player base who enjoys that play-style.
The same argument can be made for FPS games and snipers; I dare a modern FPS game to no include snipers or sniper rifles in their game. The fact is the game would likely be a colossal marketing and financial failure no matter how good the game play was.
I truly feel that some players are so married to the idea of the stealth mechanic for assassin classes that developers are forced to include them in MMO's despite the difficulties they bring inherently.
As furor said go back and read his posts. I'm not baiting or making things up. He said them.
Dirty you say you don't need to go bad and read posts. I have dealt with this exact point you raised which is fundamentally wrong from a financial point of view. Here it is again.
[quote+"[Expulze, post: 152075, member: 6338"]So what you're saying is, we should listen to these vast majority of average players to balance PVP? /facepalm[/quote]
I dont want to attack your comment for the facepalm. What i am stating is the the vast majority of the players dislike the stealthed classes because of the way PVP is implemented ie; instanced PVP with no requirement to focus upon supportive teamplay.
Now from a financial point of view if you alienate the majority of players by introducing an unbalanced class/mechanic then yes absolutly the company has failed.
Put simply this game needs to fight tons of free MMO's and no MMO of this scope will stay in business by catering to the elite few.
If they do then thats bad for you and me. Dropping populations equal less investment in the game leads to bad press and on and on
Ahh amazing. Slowly now and step outside the box
If you had gone back and read what I had said then this is the exact my point as to why Wildstar has failed IMO
6 classes with 5 hating the 1 one class. Does that sound like a smart marketing decision to make. All to appease the player "Sel" who love the class. All to make that one class sexy and cool.
Its all about dollars and cents.
Here is a previous post about how I fell the Devs have fallen into the ILUVStealth trap
Currently the class descriptions on the wildstar website have the following word counts on the class pages. I think their own PR gives them away too
I always see devs and community admins all over the stealthed class forums in other games too. Its kind of the darling class in many games.
Are stealth class populations that high in MMO's that dev's need to promote them or is it that the class is actually not that easy to play at a high level and people often try and rather quickly drop the class as they find its not so EZ mode OP fun as they originally thought.
I know there are some really good players of all classes who post up vids and make them look really powerful.
But for the average joe its a different level of skill and knowledge.
I don't think I've ever played a stealth class and found them OP though the SWTOR tankasins tread very close to the line. They can be as frustrating to play as they are to play against.
All the anti's really need to roll one, level it all the way up to end cap and then see just how OP it really is.
I think the issue comes in part from the certain element of antisocial players who are attracted by the class mechanics and also in part the players of other classes who have not yet learned to deal with the class in PvP.
Shake the mix well with a generous splash of sarcasm, sit back and enjoy.
you balance for the average and you will make mediocre classes its as simple as that at least in a game perspective sure you want to make mediocre <REDACTED> to appease everyone to make the most profits go for it.
word counts really jeez I mean jeez talk about gasping at straws.
People not liking a class has nothing to do with game balance. Its one thing to talk about how people will like the game with or without and how a game is played. You preconceived notions on how people play rogues are generalized at best.
if you wanna talk about how most people hating on rogues sure I'll give you that but talking about balance and game design is another thing.
And profits yeah make the most profits by playing safe go with what the people like right. That line of thinking is what made the medocre slew of games movies and whatever entertainment is out there but it pays the bills I guess can't fault that.
You act like its an conspiracy honestly All devs have favorite playstyles I really doubt they all love playing rogues if you feel wildstar is a failure by having one class well all I gotta say is you need to reevaluate what failure is. Or maybe you are just a troll but that would be strawman.
The funny thing about this is that I want to play a stalker but if the class didn't exist I would play a warrior or maybe a spellslinger I would never think that a class would make or break a game for me.
objective balance is different to people perception of balance.
stealth with burst would have to be a glass cannon. But damn you need some hell of pr to get people to accept that look at the posts in here.
People will complain about anything period it doesn't matter if its stealth or not. I'm tired of the 50% of the population is stealth classes it doesn't happen unless its really op or other classes are really broken like wow was. I even joked with friends that if vanilla wow was to be release now it would fail wow had a lot of problems.
I'm not a big guild wars fan so I can't comment on how stealth plays but I have play lots of mmos and its not like that at all some game they were ok some great some bad but class balance isn't about stealth vs non stealth.
I do agree with you that I think devs put stealth class as its expected to be in there like snipers in fps.
I'm not a huge FPS players but I would think a lot of those games are more suited for running and gunning.
What would happen if snipers was removed would you lose more snipers but gain more machine gun players would snipers adapt how much would you lose and gain is the question at hand.
It all depends on what is the percentages lie. same for mmo classes.
Personally I think more people rather plow through mobs then sneak around and kill high level targets in an mmo.
Who says that classes balanced for the majority of players would be average/mediocre classes. Explain your logic. Those same classes would operate differently in the hands of the elite and frankly at the elite level you end up with far fewer classes being played in any case. The elite players won't do arenas with classes that don't perform well.
Whereas the average player comes in and wants to play which ever of the classes they wish and want to at least be competitive. They don't want to be stunlocked from stealth and burst dpsed down to death.
What I know is fact. Classes that are balanced at the elite end but skewed for the vast majority of players will alienate the majority of players. What would be the use of having one class that dominates the mid range.
Its dollars and cents.
I mean you completely agreed with my point so why are you still arguing.
Pro tip, if you see the grass move stab it!
cool story yeah woo you don't know and you don't care but be pigheaded
I did play non stealth classes before bucko its not hard to play other classes hell I MT as a warrior for 2 xpacs (wotlk and cata) for my guild while pugging on my rogue and was a guardian tank for AOC with a assassin alt for <REDACTED>s and giggles. But again you do not have an open mind so think what you want.
"I played rogues I even trolled with them" yeah cool story bro. I doubt you even know why people play rogues. to gank lowbies or dominate pvp? explain pve rogue who only pve.
I think you do this to troll people and judging by your posts history which is only has been on this thread.
Now for the topic
To balance at low skill players mean lowering the bar, less diversity for classes less high skill moves with positional requirements etc etc. Its pretty simple honestly
And how is it a fact that classes balanced at high level play alienates players. Where do you get this fact from. Has gamers become so self entitled that developers have to hold your hand every single step if thats the case I fear for the future.
And who said about having one class dominating the mid range. Idealy it wouldn't be the case and again its not always rogues who are the class behind it either so stop acting like it is. Again game balance isn't perfect some classes always end up stronger and again its not always the stealth class.
Its all dollars and cents tell me how many businessmen make great games.
1. dont call me a troll for having a different opinon to you.
2. You stated you want to play the stalker. I didnt write it you did. Ie: cool story.
3. If you balance for the elite end it is more likely that they will be unbalanced for the rest of the tiers. This has been my point the entire way. My opinon is that stealth classess have traditionally been the hardest to balance at release for many Mmo's with examples littered through this discussion.
4. They are all businessmen. They dont make them for free. They make them to make money. They create and operate businesses to make money. Its not a charity.
I didn't call you a troll for a different opinion I called you one for #2
I did say I want to play the stalker I also said I could also play warrior and spellslinger you responded
"Cool story about the warrior/spellslinger."
Did you forget about that line? oh wait you edited your post to cover that up nice touch
I disagree with that notion thats the whole point. And gave examples as well as reasons.
We all know at the end of the day we're all businessmen but you don't make great things with that mindset all the time you have to be a great artist/director/developer/etc first then business 2nd. If you only let what marketing tells you whats good and whats bad you get mediocre stuff but hey if money is all you after it works fine its great for the developer not so great for the gamer.
If you wanna say one class shouldn't exist because a lot players don't like it fine I can't argue with you on that but saying mechanically it shouldn't exist because of balance I disagree. I keep saying this over and over again.
Hell I can give you a bucket list on just pve reasons why the class shouldn't exist but I still enjoy the class flaws and all.
end of the day if the game is fun I play it.
I'll do you a solid and tell you some flaws that are legitimate.
Stealth isn't useful for scouting in pve and in pvp due to technology we can see larger areas that before and can see most if not all the map so sneaking around isn't as useful as before since you can see most if not all of midmap.
(some maps can be exceptions if they make areas that can't be seen in midmap like a tower)
stealth is only as useful as the difficultly of mobs if mobs are trivial so is stealth.
Raids usually have mobs with stealth detection or true sight rending stealth useless.
Due to the nature of stealth classes and limited options in mmos (ie you can only do combat) stealth and trickery has little meaning in RP and in gameplay.
generally stealth classes are single target classes and the more aoe friendly the game is the more useless the class is.
There 5 legit reasons why stealth classes shouldn't exist now use em wherever you want to tell people not to play stealth class. They are great for exploring but generally not so great for group pve and even in pvp in some cases. only in group pvp scouting is going to be useful due to how the map is design like inside a building but midfield its useless.
And I'm done here I'm just gonna wait till the stalker livestream.
This thread became constructive, and then devolved into a pissing contest. I'm not a mod so I can't stop you, but I'd like you both turn you passion into a well thought out post so perhaps our various perspectives can be taken seriously by dev's that are listening.
Now back to some perspectives:
The main issue I think is that balance requires a definition if it is to be talked about. I define balance in two ways:
1. Equally valuable utility in a group environment(including pvp) compared to other available classes
2. Given equal gear and equal skill the outcome of any 1v1 situation is a 50/50 opportunity for both participants. In this case, equal skill also includes knowledge of classes and their potential and having an effective build(LAS, Tier and AMP in this case) that is tuned for a PvP encounter.
Once balance is defined and agreed upon, then a real discussion can take place on the matter.
I don't agree with your assertion that balancing to the average player ruins classes, I feel that making the full potential of a class easily available ruins classes.
In WoTLK(And some Cata), most classes could reach 85% of their max potential PVE damage very easily, basically without even trying. Putting some effort out would get you to 95% potential, but that last 5% was the special sauce, requiring proper cooldown usage, pots, and item tweaking. It didn't ruin the game at all I don't feel, it made it more accessible and upped player subscriptions.
This same process can be seen in LoL, where most champions are balanced around high level gameplay, but the majority of their potential can be accessed at a much lower skill cap. The brings players in, it allows them to feel as though they're playing the game well.
I don't agree with youthat any player should be able to pick up any class and "be competitive." Some classes just don't work for some people, on a thematic or mechanical level. I know some amazing players who literally could never have played a WoTLK Feral Druid or Mut Rogue, as they were skilled but lazy, so that level of micro management wasn't something they wanted.
I feel allowing players easy access to a portion of the potential is viable, but there has to be a benefit to really getting into a game and a classes mechanics to truly master them. Doing otherwise wouldn't incentivize players to even try, and the player base would get bored, then leave and the game would fail.