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The Overpowered class

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by selodaoc, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. EtherealOmega

    EtherealOmega Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is why I'm not a heavy into PvP--too much whining.

    As far as I'm concerned, the constant complaining from the PvP side of things ruins my PvE game as Devs struggle to balance the needs of both. Don't get me wrong, PvE layers whine too, but most balancing issues arise from complaints from the PvP players.
  2. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Many mmos say they will "balance seperatly" but im yet to see any mmo that when the game is actually released.
  3. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    The real secret is they don't want to balance.

    By changing the flavor of the month class they make the pvp "fresh" so people don't leave out of boredom.

    "Oh, pallies are coming back in a big way this month, better resub"
  4. Roguehandle

    Roguehandle Cupcake

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    Complaining already and the game is not out yet? Nerf..nerf! Who cares if most people cant play the game yet and how the classes act are not set in stone..:)
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  5. cheewy

    cheewy New Cupcake

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    From what I'v experienced through MMO's and patches is each class eventually gets it's time to be STRONG. I think people just make a big deal about it when its the stealth class because they weren't prepared and it scares them.
  6. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    If you are talking about WoW rogues, well that is highly dependant of the season. On few of the seasons you could literary roll your face on your keyboard and collect ratings as a rogue. :)
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  7. cheewy

    cheewy New Cupcake

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    ^ Same could be said about a lot of class. That term was mostly used on warlock and I know it was the same with warriors. It all depends on the patch and what class is strong at the time.
  8. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    Actually Ops and scoundrels in swtor were weak. They also never made any rated teams. I haven't played since the expansion but that first year they blew ass. Once in a while you would find a really good one who could escape but honestly my warrior could survive their burst and few won duels. My guild had dueling championships and warriors and pt's and assassins dominated
  9. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    I remember City of Heroes and when it's pvp first came out. In that game the stealth class (ironically called stalkers) could stay in stealth all the time, defeat the squishies and many non-squishies with two hits, and be largely uncatchable. So pvp evolved into kind of a perception arms race where high perception meant people could see stalkers and grouping in teams was the best way to counter them. Unfortunately then only one side had stalkers. So one faction constantly grouped because they really had an incentive to. The other side, with the stalkers, hardly ever grouped and were almost constantly at a disadvantage to superior numbers. Mostly because the stalkers could make more squishes on their on by using other players as decoys.

    The whole thing resulted in lots of little nerfs and changes and well, mostly things became really unfun. I always took my 'squishy' character (the class called a corruptor which was mostly buff/debuff). The most enjoyment I had was when I was together with a team of other corruptors and one or two stalker joined us. It was fun then. We could support ourselves and draw people in, only to find that we kept supporting each other and they couldn't squish us quickly. Then the happy little stalkers came.

    It does always feel like the class that has the ability to be invisible always has the advantage in any game. It's happened so many times in different games by now that everyone immediately looks to that class in a new game for problems.
  10. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    You must have started when it went F2P :D

    At the start they were insanly powerful, killing people in seconds due to knockdowns and their damage beeing of a kind you couldnt mitigate.
    They got nerfed, but was still very good.
  11. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    Ya but that lasted like a month. They got nerfed really quickly. And I played since launch.
  12. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    BTW that was kind of the point of this whole thread. Ops in Swtor seemed so strong early but I think that was more do to the fact that the utility and strengths of a stealth class are obvious early. Other classes had some really strong abilities that took a bit to blossom and get figured out. People whined there asses off and ops got nerfed and were worthless after the first or second patch
  13. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thats the topic, assassin classes always gets nerfed first
  14. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    As someone who plays a lot of the stealth classes I honestly feel if we didn't have stealth and strong cc we wouldn't be hated as much sadly when you take this away a lot of the appeal of the rogue archetype goes away (I mean why play as a light armored warrior in pvp, more dps at the cost of survival sounds more pve to me).

    I loved early rogues in vanilla and tbc wow (op as hell and deserving of nerfs which happened in tbc and even more in wotlk) but fun, the ability to control another player was intoxicating, and the cause of a lot of hatred from other players.

    And lets face it outside of a rage from warriors rogues had the most interesting system of resources (energy vs mana), had the most professions (lock picking and poisons), had their own faction (ravenholdt) and a lot of detail put in its no wonder they were more interesting and op. Enhance Shaman was considered op in vanilla but look at enhance shaman play its auto attack and frost shock with windfury procs and you needed the gear. Its really boring save for the big numbers it can produce.

    In the current state of wow, it gives an exorbitant amount of cc to everyone and the rogue class gets lagged behind after all its main strength has always been support in group pvp. Rogues lost a lot of burst to adjust that but control now that cc is given freely its a hindrance and rogues are also not as mobile as other melee. Quite frankly you will have more fun as a warrior than a rogue in mop in pvp for now anyway.

    Honestly its is harder to play a rogue in high end pvp than a warrior or paladin in pvp (in wow anyway) it's like a hunter easy to get your feet wet but in high end play only the exceptional will shine while the mediocre will fall.

    But wow is a roller coaster of buffs and nerfs what I said could be truth in one patch and a complete falsehood next patch and back to truth the patch after that. Though if there is one thing about rogues in wow is it seems like every new xpac rogues are too weak but by the end they are too strong.

    In the end I don't believe one vs one class balance is possible without damaging the uniqueness of the classes that why people really need to look into group pvp and focus on that.
  15. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    Stealth shouldn't grant any boosts to abilities, nor should it grant unique megadamage-type or stunlocking abilities. Stealth, itself, is the advantage, especially in PVP. Being able to approach a player unaware or sneak past NPCs is all it should be good for.

    That's where these types of games make their mistake.
  16. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    This is a major problem with stealth game design glad someone pointed it out. Those advantages are mostly used implemented for group PvE anyways and lets be honest whene would you ever REALY need to stealth in a dungeon? Maybe to drop aggro...

    Someone also mentioned how rouges are the least mobile class in WoW. That's a MAJOR game flaw rouge classes should ALWAYS be your most mobile class. Keep in mind a MAGE player just said this. Thats right a MAGE just said rogues should possess an ability.
  17. Uggen

    Uggen New Cupcake

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    Ops and scoundrels have never been weak in swtor. They had psycho burst in the early stage of the game. After they nerfed their damage, they became the best healers in the game. The scoundrel/ops together with assassin/shadows has easily been the most powerful classes in swtor overall, and they still are.

    Back on-topic: When it comes the the stealther class, it is important to remember that in contrary to nearly every other MMORPG, Wildstar is developed with PvP as one of their biggest priorities.
    PvP in most MMO's has just been a simple addon to the PvE content. That is why these problems usually occur. When the game is not made in order to offer a stable pvp-enviroment, the PvP-gameplay won't be as refined or balanced as a game who focuses on PvP.

    Additionally. In this game, both the movement and the free-targeting aim system adds a whole new platform of skill. Why is this relevant to this post? Well, in other MMO's, people have been bound to their class more so than to their individual performance. This means that when a class is overpowered, you will be noticeably punished for that, since your skill can't make up for it. Whereas this game will be much more Player vs player related. That way, even though a class might need some nerfs, you can more easily make up for that by playing better.

    Other aspects of this game that will help class-balance:
    each class bound to one weapon type(much easier to balance)
    You as a player are bound to pick a certain amount of abilities to use (a maximum of 9, I believe.)
    This might make it somewhat easier to balance, simply because there are fewer abilities to take into account.

    By this I am not saying that the stealth-class isn't gonna be OP(or being nerfed without need, because too many whiners complained), I am just saying that there are a variety of reasons to why we won't encounter this problem in the same proportions as we have in previous MMO's.
    Domi Dayglow likes this.
  18. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    That's a good point. I think a lot of people were worried that the stalker would be seen as overpowered. And thus lots and lots of nerfs come in the months following launch to make them less fun to the people who like them.
  19. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm really surprised this thread is still going! But it is a contentious subject, so there is that.

    I fully agree with Grim Fandango and Quantum Wizard here, the burst and crowd control potential of out-of-stealth abilities should be heavily limited. In a permanent situation, there should be no amplified spike damage, but I feel that added damage over time would be an interesting change. It provides the player with a reward for careful maneuvering and not getting caught. Same goes for out-of-stealth CC, a soft CC such as a silence(WoW's garrote) or a mild snare would provide that same level of reward without completely shutting down the stealther's opponent.

    In a GW2 style short duration stealth, I feel burst skills are perfectly acceptable so long as the duration of stealth abilities don't exceed 3-4 seconds. In a game such as GW2 or Wild Star where movement is such a key aspect of combat, if a stealthed player can catch you, they've earned their burst potential just like any other melee class.

    I think the largest problem lies with long held beliefs about what rogues and assassins do in RPG settings. Here's a fun anecdote! Many years ago while playing Ultima Online, a friend of mine decided to play as an assassin. He got his fencing up to 40, his dexterity up to 60, his sneak up to 60, and bought a couple of daggers from a friend who had put deadly poison on them. At this time, deadly poison would kill someone with 100 strength(which was also hit points) in approximately 3.5 seconds, faster if they had less than 100 strength. So he'd hide just outside of Moonglow behind a tree, and stab other low level characters until poison proc'ed, standing there and watching them try to type something before dying, then loot their corpses. That is exactly how people imagine rogues in RPG's as dirty rotten <REDACTED>s who don't have to really try to win, and that is the class they want to play because it is ludicrously fun.

    That archetype needs to be rewritten or taken out of games completely in order to really fix the problem here. Who knows, maybe the Carbine team has their own plan on how to effectively remove high burst and CC from the rogue archetype while maintaining a fun class with permanent stealth.
  20. cheewy

    cheewy New Cupcake

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    All this talk about the Stalker is starting to make me wanna play the OP class now :p
    hehe

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