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The Overpowered class

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by selodaoc, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Heh. Not like we know if they're actually going to have any problems or not, but there's something to playing a class that allows you to basically make someone else's day worse.
  2. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Problem with not having burst, is that assassin by nature are very squishy, usually vulnrable to cc, and have a severe lack of ranged skills and gapclosers.

    If they dont beat their opponent fast, their 90% of the time sure to die.

    Maybe have somehting that makes them CC immune, and somethign that keeps enemies in melee range, disabling "blinks"

    Again, its the mage fault for positioning themselves badly, not getting help from friends.

    A mage is never supposed to run around alone in PvP. A mage is a groupclass, an assassin is a soloer.
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  3. Quantum Wizard

    Quantum Wizard Cupcake

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    I totally agree! Remember this is comming from a guy who plays Mages. In fact the only class that should be running aroun on their own in PvP is the stealther. Everyone esle should be working in groups. The whole Idea of having a stealther is so you can take out squishies in the back of groups like priest and "Gulp" mages. so your team doesn't have to deal with them at critical moments. I live rouges who do this. I hate rouges who spawn camp though. They don't help their team as much as youd think. In fact if anything their just trimming off fat from the other team.
  4. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Selo, you bring up an interesting conundrum, but one that is rooted in the assumption that rogue/assassin classes have to be squishy. Providing the class with other tools than burst and lockdown CC, could easily provide them with the survivability needed in order to maintain a long fight against an opponent. Disarms, silences, weakness, attack speed/cast speed de-buffs, snares and roots can all reduce the effectiveness of an enemy long enough to give a stealth class the survivability needed, not counting actual defensive skills/cooldowns.

    Is there an argument to be made that a melee burst class is fun in its own way, and is also a viable archetype? Absolutely, but I don't think that stealth and burst are two archetypes that should be mixed together in a modern MMO with aspirations of competitive PvP.

    And Quantum, as for spell casters being a "group" class, that is also part of a biased stereo-type which could be revisited. With the mobility of ranged classes in Wild Star, no class should* inherently be weaker or stronger in a different solo or group environment.

    * Mobility is inherently a defensive trait, and requires short cast times, upping survivability of ranged classes in comparison to melee classes which are required to maintain close proximity to other classes.

    /edit: edited for stupid spelling errors.
  5. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    1 viable tree out of 3, 2 being DPs, does not make an strong stealth class. NO ops DPs made rated teams on our server.
  6. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    And the OP's concern was with stealth DPs and whether or not they get nerfed prematurely. Obviously healing had nothing to do with this thread. And even you state OPs had crazy burst early. Like for a month when everyone wasn't very good. They got nerfed, then there DPs sucked compared to all classes. They were not popular in raids for DPs and neither were they viable for competitive PVP. No one wanted ops DPs over Assassins. That's fact for the class up to the Expansion a year out. As I stated I did not play once the expansion launched I have no clue how good they are now.
  7. Uggen

    Uggen New Cupcake

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    I didn't say the ops was a good dps later on after the release. What I am saying is that the ops' dps was OP after release, and for a couple of months later. I see that as kind of relevant to this post? This post is after all about stealth classes being nerfed some time after release because the class is OP(or people thought it was...), and that was the case for the ops/scoundrel aswell. When it comes to me mentioning their heals, I am sorry. I just wanted to add that the ops has been an OP class since release, whether it be because of dps or heals.
  8. Yorobashi

    Yorobashi Cupcake

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    It's not about listening to the cross dressers it's about observing class interactions. Most MMOs do not have a complex enough stat system to keep the typical stealth class from being tuned properly. They are definitely one of the hardest of classes to balance as they are more reliant on their utilities than other classes.

    The ranged dps types are counterbalanced around their base damage/damage absorption/control ability more so than their mobility/escape mechanics as typically ranged classes have the same range (archers typically get the extended range as they usually have less CC and lower burst and less utility)
    Heavy armor melee get to run around like Happy Gilmore rolling their faces on keyboards in an attempt to catch those wascally wanged wabbits.

    Medium armor ranged characters maybe as squishy as their melee counterpart but they have the advantage of being able to do damage from a safe distance so they don't get instagibbed by Captain Ramrods.

    The drag queens just get crazy amounts of burst (or strong crowd control with strong sustained damage) so that they can kill Lieutenant butt plug before he has the chance to pierce their flamboyant dresses.

    So when a medium armor melee class is designed it is typically given the highest damage output of all classes as well as high cc/utility so it can compete. Unfortunately it's almost always put over the top because it's better for a class to be overpowered and pooping on everyone than to be underpowered and thus boring to its player.

    Based completely off my own imagination/experience over the past decade of playing mmos at their launch. Probably very unlikely any of this is reality and I'm actually just just singing to myself in room with walls made of pillows. THEY'RE SO FLUFFY!!!
  9. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    That might have worked in a 1v1 situation. but PvP is almost never about 1v1. If an assassin doesnt kill fast, the enemy hes attacking will very soon get help from his friends and get killed of fast.

    That is the result after to many nerfs. Assassins arent able to kill fast enough and get ganked by the enemy team.

    A mage is wearing cloth and has usually the lowest hp of all classes, they should be vulnrable in the open. They should never be able to run around on their own.
  10. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    However Selo, the power of stealth is picking your battles. if you can't safely assassinate your target, then don't engage. Then there's the argument that any class, is a 2v1 situation is going to lose simply because damage mitigation isn't high enough stop that from happening no matter the class.

    My solution is to make a rogue/assassin have high burst, but not from stealth. Their stealth attacks should be soft CC, DoT's and debuffs, while their other abilities should provide the damage. It won't make people happy to lose back stabs, but it would solve the stealth burst problem.

    And after watching today's DevSpeak, the whole CC discussion will still need to be revisited in another thread.
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  11. Lyng

    Lyng New Cupcake

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    Most people complain about stealth classes because their skill level and understanding of pvp is not high enough for them to deal with a stealth class.
    Take Dota 2 for example. This is a game where balance is probably better then most other pvp games. There is a hero called Riki. He is stealth. He has insane burst damage and can when equally geared kill a cloth/int hero in a few shots.
    However. At the same time he is insanely squishy, and solely dependant on beeing able to engage from stealth, as in an open fight he would loose to the taking high amounts of damage.
    This is why on the lower brackets you will see Riki players completely stomping face. Why? Because lower skilled players / new players dont bother going for items that remove his stealth (dust of apperance, wards etc) and also they run around on their own.
    On the higher levels of matchmaking you will almost never see Riki played. In those games people buy sentry wards (make invisible characters visible) and dust of appearance and they usually work in small teams, protecting their carries etc, and squishy supports rarely run around on their own. Meaning that even if a Riki engages a squishy hero the other hero will stun / silence the riki and he will get completely stomped.

    So if you look at forums you will see the new players / lesser skilled players complaining about Riki beeing OP, while the ones playing the higher brackets actually consider him somewhat useless. Even if he has insane burst damage out of stealth.
    MMO's are rarely balanced because the devs listen to much to the casual pvp'ers who refuse to actually try to learn and understand the mechanics and how to work against other classes.
    The best way to deal with a strong class is not to whine about them beeing OP, but to try and play the class yourselve. This way you will certainly find out when you meet better players how they deal with you, and that you can then use when playing against said class next time.
    Sorry for the wall of text.
  12. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Like i said, that is becouse those players works in group.

    Assassins (Riki) is a soloclass. An Int class (Mage) is a groupclass.

    (Although Alliance used a Templar Assassin in one of their games :) )

    I can agree that Assassins maybe shouldnt do 80% of health damae from stealth, but then you really need t bring up the out od stealth damage, and also make it harder to escape stealthers (blink, stunn etc)

    From the resent "spam F" video, i dont see it beeing easier for stealthers if enemies can easily break their cc.
  13. Spaceman Spiff

    Spaceman Spiff Cupcake

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    That's a smart idea.
  14. Lyng

    Lyng New Cupcake

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    Some work in groups yes, however if using your skills right a int player can easily beat a riki. I for example mostly play Puck (very very squishy, but also insanely mobile). I allways carry a dust of appearance so a Riki cant get away. If he opens on me he might even take most of my life, but after the initial opening that is where I have a limited timewindow to break the silence and move. And ones that is done he will die because I am more mobile and can simply kite him to death. This is the case in most MMO's aswell, a good mage can easily kite and kill a rogue.
    But again lesser skilled mages / other squishy classes, dont bother learning that process but simply jump straight to forums to complain.
    And all this is comming from a guy who doesnt play assasin /thief classes in MMO's.
  15. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well i dont think mobas is a good comparison in the first place really
  16. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Lyng is absolutely correct about the inability of lower skilled players fully grasp the tactical situation they're in when they lose to a stealthed character. The problem is in an MMO the skill level required for all classes needs to be set at "average" as most players communicate poorly and fail to stick with the group in PvP situations. Sure, it makes it easier for the wolves among the population to pick off straggling characters, it also limits the viability of stealth classes by giving them only one real job, while simultaneously creating a backlash against the assassin archetype.

    My previous suggestion of moving burst away from stealth and into normal attacks, I think could solve this issue. Instead of having to watch their character just fall over and die, even average players could have time to react, but would do so with a number of debuffs or soft CC's already on their character from the beginning of the fight. You could even take the WoW Subtlety rogue a step further, and create a class based heavily around melee application of poisons and debuffs in general. It would be insanely fun, and absolutely the most irritating thing on the battlefield: a stealth class with multiple snares, roots, debuffs and DoTs. I'd play that. :p
  17. Lyng

    Lyng New Cupcake

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    Yup this is true. You can never balance an MMO completely because you need a low average entry level to pvp in that kind of game.
    However your suggestion to the stealthed type with alot more cc is a good idea. Also dots on stealth classes can be alot of fun. Like I said I dont really like playing stealth heroes /chars in pvp, but in pve I loved playing the "pre buff / skillnerf" feral kitty druid of The Burning Crusade era.
    It was much like the sublety rogue, a class cabable of amazing damage and versatillity whilst still beeing insanely hard to master.
  18. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    You just know the whine would switch over to "the dots are to powerful" and the assassins would be nerfed there instead.

    Making a melee class without stealth that arent either 1. Berserker AoE type with alot of cc resistance, or 2. Tank, is very hard.
    Like said, DPS melee classes rely very much on DPS burst, or they get focused down extremly quick.

    Also, dots might be fun, until the healer in the enemy group use groupcleanse
  19. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    People will always whine. Its a simple fact about any game with PvP, especially among the lower tiers of skill level

    Melee DPS that is burst-y I think its absolutely fine. For a long while, Fury and Arms Warriors in WoW were the preeminent single target DPS class in the game in their own turns, and Combat Rogues also had their day in the sun. The issues usually arise when a burst-y melee class has an unavoidable initiation, ie stealth. If you give a melee class a damage mitigation or healing mechanic it becomes completely viable as a burst archetype with out stealth.

    Again I think this will never be rectified because the player base absolutely loves the stealth/burst archetype, and its only been reinforced as of late because of the Assassin's Creed and Dishonored franchises(and probably others).
  20. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Then it would be a berzerker. The class that dies the most in pvp due to beeing easy to target and squishier then the tank

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