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The Overpowered class

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by selodaoc, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Well as you know, any melee-centric character is going to be a target. The only reason assassin class in any game survive is because of the tools they're given to do so, stealth is just one of them. A non-stealth melee burst class can be given any number of tools to improve their short term suvivability: shields, heals, debuff mechanics, mobility.

    From a more practical perspective, ranged DPS is the single best way to burst another character down. Use the terrain to your advantage, hope you're not seen, hit with a big opener then snare, snare and kit until they're dead. I did this countless times from bushes or the water in WoW with a Marks hunter in TBC, and saw it done endlessly with Fire Mages as well.

    As I said, players just love the stealth+burst archetype and are loath to give it up, even if that means that PvP combat could be balanced more easily. I don't blame players for loving it, as its insanely fun and satisfying, but permanent stealth is a difficult mechanic to work around at best and is anti-fun at the worst.
  2. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    i for one am glad they are making pve and pvp seprate. easier to balance so i dont think there will be an op class a month or two after launch.
  3. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    The rogue class nerfs are usually necessary. I played stealth classes in quite some mmos, (as mains as well) and as much as I would have liked to stay op and face-roll everyone I would be lying if I was to say that the nerfs were unfair. Also as far as I remember it was mostly the mage classes that got smacked with a nerf stick early on in most games, probably even before the stealth class did, at least pve wise.

    One way or the other we can't expect class balance to be perfect and some classes are just harder to balance than others, in the end the goal is to have a nice balance across classes, I don't think anyone's goal is to have one or more classes above the rest.
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  4. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    It's like most games try to balance all other classes around whatever passes as their 'warrior' class.
  5. Gray

    Gray Podcaster

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    A direct side effect of this is also the tuning of one skill that certainly helps out the "build" of a rogue player that is solely based on non pvp content. This tuning of an ability that gets a lot of hate may throw off its well balanced pve usage and voila you have a hot mess on your hands of messing with PvE rogues when you were trying to balance the PvP side of the coin.

    Balancing is icky.
  6. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Balance is grotesquely difficult, even in games that were designed from the ground up to allow different skills and kits to be balanced separately in PvE and PvP(Guild Wars 2, for example).

    People want their characters to feel exactly the same in both PvE and PvP, so removing any amount of damage or functionality from them is tantamount to ruining the game for the player.
  7. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    am i the only one who has faith they will get it right? i know im hoping against hope but i really feel they will get it right.
  8. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Xecks, its less about faith in the dev team, and more about the realities of a player base that maintains unobtainable expectations for game development. The balance of permanent stealth in a PvP setting is, for all intents and purposes, impossible. There are of course, a thousand really great arguments for having permanent stealth in PvE, but those don't carry over well, or at all, to PvP. The difficulty is balancing permanent stealth with burst damage and reasonable survivability into a single class, and I don't see it ever happening in a way that doesn't leave the person playing the class or the person being attacked by the class feeling as if the fight was fair.
  9. Xecks

    Xecks Cupcake-About-Town

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    i can see your point. i just hope it somehow gets right lol.
  10. Hezrou

    Hezrou Cupcake-About-Town

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    This.

    I uninstalled Guild Wars 2 for how much they dropped the ball for Assassins and didn't fix it until MUCH later than it needed to be. Not to mention Engineers became broken with their bomb drops 1 shoting everything pulled in sight. (which also never got nerfed for ages).

    Honestly, don't judge a class just yet before the game is out. I DO feel that Stalkers will have a broken advantage, but seeing so far from what little video I've seen of pvp with a Stalker involved (which is 1. /sigh) it's really not even that broken if at all. I think Carbine is taking the examples of other MMOs and steering clear of horribly broken classes.

    But don't take my word for it. I might be wrong and Stalker class is either stupidly broken already or stupidly nerfed. Either way, I am not playing it so who cares lol
  11. Marwin Dexter

    Marwin Dexter New Cupcake

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    People who played Stalker at Pax / Gamescom saying that Stalker isnt that Nuke class a normal Rogue class is. It haven´t Combo points and so on, just normal attacks, like a fast warrior.. Esper is building combo points alike charged and unleashing them. ( Magically Rogue )
  12. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yea, been watchign some vidoes and it feels like Stalkers are more a slashing lowarmor damage dealer, not so much stealth and stab.
    For pure ST dps and control, spellslinger seems to be better. Like the fight in the pax video between a stalker and spellslinger, the stalker didnt stand a chance, beeing kited around while slashing in air.
  13. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    The issue with the videos we've seen, I think lies in the LAS system and the abilities the stalker had equipped. Watching the play at PAX, I noticed that the Stalker was considerably more tank-y than I had expected, and had a notable amount of health regen that was mitigating a lot of the damage he was taking from mobs. So what I think we were seeing even in the PvP was a PvE tank vs a high dps build, and in my experience that never goes well for the tank.
  14. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    True, that was my thinking aswell. Yet in these twitchy dodge kind of games, ranged usually have an advantage, which is one of the flaws with the system.
    Easier to avoid damage, and keeping in combat.

    Gah, i really need to get in beta so i can try them out :p
  15. Extatica

    Extatica Super Cupcake

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    On the contrary :coffee:
    Melee'ish will have an easier time, depending on which skills both party's have! <-- key point!

    If the range has multiple ''stand-still-and-shoot'' abilities then the melee has the upper hand, but if the melee doesn't have any engage ability on his bar and fights a range with loads of ''walking while shooting'' abilities, then the range has the upper hand.

    In these cases people tend to forget about the LAS-bars, which kinda decide who has the upper hand.
  16. atom

    atom Cupcake-About-Town

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    UO Did an amazing job with hide/stealth and its uses.
  17. Garchomp

    Garchomp New Cupcake

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    It sounds like you're not entirely familiar with GW2's Thief. I am not saying the class is broken, but it has a much more powerful Stealth mechanic than WoW's Rogue. And I'm just referring to non-bugged stuff.

    Bare minimum 15 points (which isn't too huge a sacrifice as you have 70 total) Shadow Arts Dagger+Pistol Thief can achieve permanent stealth easily outside and during combat without having to worry about cooldowns. Black Powder smoke field into Heartseeker leap finisher 4 times (very easy to do once you get the hang of controlling Heartseeker's leap distance by aiming down.)

    Bare minimum 20 points Shadow Arts Shortbow weapon set #1 and Pistol offhand weapon set #2 and you can give permanent stealth to yourself and 4 other allies as long as you yourself are out of combat. Black Powder into Cluster Bomb blast finisher 3 times (was a noted stealth opener in tPvP.)

    And finally, Cloak and Dagger timings. Very hard to do now that Thieves don't take an extra second to appear out of stealth, but still doable.

    The bugs you're vaguely addressing probably refers to the two bugs (both fixed now) that many players who don't understand Thieves pass along their version of what the bugs are (it's pretty common to hear strange claims about the perma stealth techniques from players who are not familiar with Thieves--it's also pretty common to hear Thieves give disingenuous advices on how to deal with perma stealth.) The first already mentioned (Thieves taking too long to appear for other players.) The other was Cloak and Daggers against tower walls wasn't causing Revealed debuff, so it was easy to just spam CnD and not worry about timing.

    A decent Dagger+Pistol Thief with some points in Shadow Arts will never die unless he's lagging. He can disengage into perma stealth *anytime* he wants. And during stealth (if traited properly,) he'll have conditions periodically cleansed, and he'll heal--all the while with taking damage not breaking stealth in GW2.

    These mechanics are not exploits or bugged. They do not require Utility skills, only weapon skills with high Initiative regeneration. And they are downright *easy* to do with no risk if you practice just for a bit (I can reliably stay permanently stealthed in SMC under another server's occupation and never get caught even if they see my Black Powder and try to flush me out--Thieves have extreme mobility and leeway while stealthed once you add in more Trait points, some Utility skills, well positioned Heartseeker leaps, etc.)

    I'm not calling GW2 Thieves cheap, just saying that their stealth can be much more powerful than a WoW Rogue could ever hope his stealth to be. A WoW Rogue does not have an *always* ready option to disengage into unpunishable perma stealth anytime he wants. And of course, Thieves can't cap points in WvW anymore while stealthed (and never could in sPvP.)
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  18. D3athcr33ps

    D3athcr33ps Cupcake

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    I don't think the ranged being op will be an issue. With other mmos you automatically target and press a button. I think GOOD melee players will learn to juke casters and GOOD ranged can kite and do skill shots. I just hope to god there are no slowing/rooting components that make it impossible to get infinitely kited. In WoW a warrior v.s. a hunter or frost mage is just one player running around getting nuked. It's a really hard system to balance out utility, mobility, damage, survivabity, healing, etc. I think each class with get their buffs and nerfs and there will inevitably be a flavor of the week. I would just say play the class you like and hope there is some semblance of balance.
  19. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hi there Gearchomp, I'm not going to quote your post, as its enormous as well as very well written.

    Admittedly my skill and experience with the thief in WvW and sPvP is /very/ limited in comparison to many players. A lot of my experience with the stealth mechanics go back to alpha before large WvW was being widely tested. At the time, the power of stealth was in the ability to disappear and change angles and consistently use stealth based openers.

    However, your extended explanation of the problems with Thieves highlights my original statements: Permanent stealth is generally game breaking, frustrating to play against, and all told insanely difficult to balance.
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  20. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Im thinking more of a PvE standpoint, wheres in a normal mmo melees usually can stand still and rely on soaking up damage or evading it while using their rotations. In WS they have to dodge out of alot of it, making combat take a bit longer.

    While as a range (if enemy is ranged that is) you can stand still, standing outside the range of telegraphs (if you have someone else "tank" the mob)

    Ranged is more like before then Melee.

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