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The Overpowered class

Discussion in 'WildStar Classes & Paths' started by selodaoc, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    Well have to say to the Op the following.

    I am disapointed that wildstar has decided to introduce a stealth class. As you clearly stated they are the first to get nerfed ( and the most over played UMO) because they are a broken mechanic class.

    Sight is the No 1 sense a gamer has. To take that away is a major advantage.

    You state cloth classes complain etc etc. the reason for this is that stealthed classes aim for them. Low damage mitigation versus surprise and high burst damage.

    Frankly the class is a low skill class that is rarely if well balanced. That is why it is nerfed.

    Personally i dont think i will play Wildstar simply because the majority of players will roll the stealth class looking for easy beat gameplay. Then when the other classes complain it will be a case of dont alienate the majority of subscribers and it will remain OP.

    Then its all about the LRN2Play comments, the you shouldnt be able to beat all classes, its a paper scissor rock thing, your a support class stick with your team mates, we are the high burst twitchy class that is played by the most skilled players, etc etc etc lol.

    I dont play stealth anymore. Its boring. Its all Sneak behind distracted or already engaged player. Oneshot/ high burst them down. Run or stealth away. Rinse repeat. It just isnt skillful at all and i still dont get why other people kid themselves its otherwise.

    Wildstar you have failed immediatly.
  2. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    This is the exact example of where the stealthed players thought pattern goes wrong.

    The majority of PVP in games is PUB where no one plays as a team. The majority of players dont care about protecting their teamates, scratch that they dont give a damn. Now you force a class ie : cloth based to have to rely on other randoms to be successful in a senario where no one cares about you. They wont even help the healer getting raged on even though they could get direct benefits from saving them LOL why would they help a mage.

    Now you throw into that mix a class totally unreliant upon others that can pick and choose their target which of course is the low damage mitigation target that they can burst down and let me state of course you will because the vast majority of stealth players mentality is go for the easy kill. Its why you get the forum rage.

    Its sad ive seen the same things over and over again.
  3. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    That's not a problem that inherits from rogues, Nor a design problem, That's a social problem.
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  4. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    And that he probably only played WoW. In other mmorpgs teamplay is key
  5. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Hey Michael Stevens(If that is even your real name!), the vast majority of people here define assassins using RPG tropes, not MOBA terminology. Thereby an assassin class is a stealth based, burst DPS class with low survivability. This tends to be tied into rogue archetype simply due to the stealth mechanics, it is much easier to balance one class around stealth instead of two(see Shadowbane for how not to do it).

    There is also a propensity for classes such as the Sentinel to be defined as a “Berserker” class, ie: High sustained or burst DPS, high mobility, strong defensive cool downs but low damage mitigation. WoW’s Arms and Fury warriors, SWTOR’s Sentinels, Aion’s Templars, etc.

    From a MOBA perspective a Sentinel would be an assassin class, as the skill kit is functionally very similar to someone like Katarina, Lee Sin, Talon or Zed.

    Currently, no one knows or is able to talk about how the LAS kit is going to work for the Stalker. As discussed earlier, the one seen in the PAX Panel video appears to be a tank set up with decent damage mitigation and health regen. We do not know if there will be spike damage available from stealth, or the amount of crowd control provided to the class.

    For the sake of discussion only, one could say that it is a design problem, the team based play isn’t emphasized enough in the design of Battleground/Warzone style combat. There isn’t enough incentive to protect your allies, so there is a mechanic missing. I’ll use BF3 as an example, rezzing a fallen teammate keeps your team from losing a ticket. One good soldier, rezzing his team can actually turn the tide of a game. When a game gets down to a 20 ticket difference between winning and losing, it is a huge benefit. Not to say that the BF3 system is the solution, but that a visible incentive to protect your allies in a team based game mode could begin to fix some of the typical “Pub play” problem.


    NOTE: I'm on some new meds, so if something is off/wrong/weird with my post, I apologize in advance.
  6. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    Nobody knows exactly how the Stalker class is going to play yet. There is still plenty of balancing to take care of in both PvE and PvP.

    Even if Stalkers ended up playing like a Rogue in World of Warcraft, I don't see them being as painful to go against in PvP because of the breakout gameplay to combat against CC.

    As far as having a stealth class goes, it makes sense to have it in Wildstar because of the futuristic sci-fi setting of the game. Even nowadays, the United States military is already working on stealth technology for ground troops.

    Now all you have done so far is make assumptions about a system you know nothing about yet. How about you reserve your judgement until open beta or official release before coming to your decision.
  7. Theirin

    Theirin Cupcake

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    I think the general idea is that over time players have to learn about how to counter "stealth" or the assassins. That's all there is to it, in any well designed game there is a way to counter and defeat any given class, or hero type. If that includes using teammates then so be it. Being a pretty solid league of legends player, unless you SEVERELY outplay the assassin class as say the squishy ranged carry, they will beat you every fight provided you are near the same level and item tiers. Thus, if you play a squishy and realize you cannot beat the assassin, you have to figure out how to beat them in order to win the game. This is a little different in MMO's of course, but you have to use the same perspective. There is no such thing as 1v1 arena as far as I am aware because certain classes are created to beat others, so you have to figure out how to counter-act that and then defeat the opposition through the weakness of the other class. I think a lot of people cry over powered for a lot of things because they aren't willing to do the research to understand the flaws of the opposing class, or they simply are playing to the strengths of the class they are facing. If you expect that as a healer that you can out-duel a rogue or stealth class, I think that is rather foolish. That is like thinking you can 1v1 the opposing assassin in league of legends as the support for your team.
  8. Mellkor

    Mellkor Well-Known Cupcake

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    It's a team based scenario...which by definition implies some team inter-dependency...
    Its kinda like saying, Why cant i just grab the football and run to the goal, then crying because you are not successful..
    Theirin likes this.
  9. Theirin

    Theirin Cupcake

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    You are exactly right, and the minute you make "classes" a part of any sort of game, that means that they will have specific roles and abilities which they excel at. If we did not have this and any class could solo any class, then it would be a complete roll of the dice as far as PvP goes, and would in my opinion make things rather dull. If you play these sort of games with end-game social scenarios in mind, then you have to accept these things in my opinion. If you want to run around solo and clear content that's totally cool too and they create ways for you to do that freely on servers that aren't PvP where you can go explore and kill creatures to your hearts content.
  10. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    However, in football, its a inherent logic at least for Americans. Where as in BG/WZ/etc, there is little obvious strategy beyond, "cap this point/carry this flag, and kill things." Football has built into the game type obvious benefits for protecting other members of the team during specific moments. These should be, but I don't feel are, obvious to a large portion of players in BG/WZ's.

    Adding a mechanic such as characters being healed also receive a 5% movement speed buff in CTF maps, or take 5% less damage on point control maps, would build in an actual incentive to make sure healers are protected and are a mandatory part of the team and require protection. It really only needs to be a small, subtle yet tangible benefit in order to motivate the player base to work as a team.

    Its just a thought really, nothing serious, however there is a lack of team building in PUG's in PvP which I feel should be addressed through game theory.
    Theirin likes this.
  11. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    Thank you for proving my point perfectly. Your comment explains that i have a lack of knowledge/skill otherwise known as the classic LRN2play comment from the stealthed fan base.

    I am a member of TOG and 42 and i have played a lot of games.

    I still do not see in the other posts anything outside of what i have seen in other forums re this class.

    XYZ class should not from the outset be able to beat another class. Thats poor game design and its why players flock to stealth classes and target low damage mit classes. ( you clearly outline that broken system in the first post.)

    The top players can beat stealthed classes ( so what happens to the other 97% do they just have to suck it. Frankly the reason why they get counterd by the best of the best is they execute teamplay skillfully)

    Its your own fault if u dont stay with your team comments ( PUBS are all about solo play and the VAST majority play that way)

    Again same old same old.
  12. Gamerz

    Gamerz Cupcake

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    In what way would allowing the mechanics to determine the outcome based upon skill be a dull game. That would be a perfectly balanced game and exciting as you cant bank on an outcome.

    Desiring an outcome where you can dominate one class seems dull to me because when you go into that fight you know what the outcome will be.

    It always seems like the stealhed classes want to make sure they have "at least" one class they know they can beat.

    Seems like a crutch to me IMO
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  13. Theirin

    Theirin Cupcake

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    I'm not really sure how that is a crutch. I am saying this as having never played an assassin type class but as having figured out how to beat them in various games. I am simply stating that you cannot have the diverse class system without one class excelling at one thing while others do not. The assassin class excels at killing the squishy class, it is your job as the squishy class to figure out how to counteract that. Is it going to be a lot harder than the class that your particular class has an easier time at beating, yes, is it impossible, no. It may even involve the help of another teammate at times, but it is all doable. I also think for the purpose of debate, quoting one specific sentence does not do the entire idea justice. Because I did in fact explain the idea of roles.

    As far as why it would make the games more dull, because then no class would excel at any certain role, sure maybe your class would be ranged, but it wouldn't necessarily be particularly useful for anything. When you enter any sort of team environment there has to be some sort of difference between each class, and with those differences comes the ability to do well at certain things and not at others, in order to have complete and utter balance all skills would have to be the same and I think that makes games rather dull. I wouldnt play an MMO if I wanted to do that because then I don't have to figure out how to counter said assassin as a ranged squishy (which is what I plan on playing), sure I may get gibbed a few times trying to figure it out but thats the enjoyment of the game. Learning how to counter-play rather than expecting that as a DPS class that there isn't someone who can shut me down if I don't understand how to avoid said shutdown. Of course all of what I am saying is based on previous experience when facing assassin types, and we have no idea what stalkers are going to be capable of in Wildstar until it is played, but I have always wondered why people rage so hard about this sort of thing. In any MMO I have played, the warrior class stomps the assassin or stealth class, and the mage class usually has no problem dealing with the warriors, and this is just PvP in itself and seeing how the classes counteract one another and which is exactly why arena and other co-op PvP require group coordination in many ways.
    selodaoc likes this.
  14. Theirin

    Theirin Cupcake

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    This is a brilliant idea because the mindset of most players when they go into most warzones or battlegrounds or whatever it is called for the specific game you are playing, is that you just run in and cap and kill, there is not teamwork involved which doesn't make any sense when there is a system in place where healers aren't going to be able to beat the majority of classes in a 1v1 situation. This is by design, because the design of these games is for other people. So providing small incentives for people to work as a team is great way to help shift the mindset from a call of duty standpoint where you choose a gun and whoever is better at shooting and positioning wins, to working with your team, and whoever works best together to counteract what they see in front of them ends up victorious.
  15. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sentinels are the archetype of Berserker. Dual Wield, go in and slash as much as possible, and die horribly if your defensive cooldowns arent up. (Although sentinels were extremly OP when i played with way to many defensive cooldowns, gapclosers and high dmg skills)
    There is one assassinclass in SWToR and thats not the Sentinel.

    MMORPGs shouldnt be compared to MOBAs either. The sooner that stops, the better. Its like MMORPGS
    and FPS
  16. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Morning everyone!

    Exactly my point Theirin, maybe the failure isn't the community, but the game design. And to be clear, I mean game as the mini-game of instanced group PvP. I get the impression, and I could be very wrong here, that the vast majority of gamers don't view this form of PvP as a team sport, which needs to be addressed at a design level. Football, baseball, soccer, basketball(and other I'm sure) have as one of their inherent strengths an inbuilt need for the players to work together, and inbuilt incentives to do so as well. It may be time for MMO companies to look to these games, and find way to build an incentive system to make the games more "team" based.

    That was what I was attempting to get at Selo, so that Michael Stevens knew how the definitions of these archetypes were generally being used on these forums.
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  17. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    Unfortunally instanced scenario PvP is the form most mmos use nowadays. Much easier to make but OH so boring after a while.
    You always know where the enemies are and will come from due to 2 spawnpoints, and it often ends with one side spawncamping the other.
    Its one of the reason why i dont really enjoy FPS anymore either.

    Big open PvP with sieges etc are much better, although stoping it from becomes a merry go around capturing keeps and biggest zerg wins is hard. DaoC succeded in Old Frontiers, but failed in New Frontiers. And GW2 failed from start.
  18. Theirin

    Theirin Cupcake

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    Well I see where you are coming from, but overall if you think about the entire design of a class system its supposed to insinuate working together. I think it is a little bit of both, some people will go out of their way to think about games and take the extra mile to figure out how they should play and others simply won't. That is to be said about pretty much everything in this world though =)
  19. Furor Tuetonicus

    Furor Tuetonicus Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love open world PvP, however open world PvP doesn't lend itself to class balance. Open world PvP almost requires situational imbalances. As was discussed earlier if all of the classes were sword and board warriors with identical skill, while every battle would come down to skill and execution, it would be boring from a strategic perspective. I'd almost say that a paper>rock>scissor style of balance is preferred by most players. It is considerably more interesting, and it also forces some players to go, "Sure, rock shouldn't beat paper. But I can beat your paper, with my rock. Watch me."

    Theirin, I think that classes don't provide enough of a identification of role for. Generally there is the Holy Trinity, but that isn't enough to give 15 random people an idea of what they should be doing for their team. When little Timmy goes, "But I'm a mage! I'm supposed to blow things up!" he's not thinking about the fact that he has a series of spells that cause dazing, stuns, snares or damage reduction. Healers are so rare in PUG PvP that it is kind of laughable, and tanks are viewed as completely worthless as anything other than sandbags and flag carriers.

    I think creating a MOBA style sign up for specific roles would be the best way to handle this. You queue up as a Stalker, the game recognizes that your gear is all tank stats. You're given two role options: Sandbag/Runner, you pick one and depending on your choice you're given a buff, specific to your role: dmg reduction or move speed. This would be equivalent to choosing to go Top Lane or Jungle. Your classes game play doesn't change, but your tactical game play does. Healers would get a similar option, with only two dedicated healers being able to gain the healing buff(this would have to be a notable buff). All that's left is room for DPS/interference. Four players could be listed as interference, they would gain a smaller, but still significant bonus to Damage reduction, move speed and crowd control duration(not entirely applicable to WildStar, would have to think on it). The last few rolls would be damage, ie bruisers/carries. They would gain a noticeable buff to damage to make their role more specific.

    Every role would also come with an Icon over the players head so that teammates and enemies would know who was who, making it easier to pick targets, and to protect targets. Everyone would be certain that they had a specific job that needed done, and would be more compelled to do so within the team environment.

    Of course, people could just as easily ignore the whole thing and do whatever they wanted, but the buffs would be role specific, I think limiting that somewhat.
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  20. ComitMaster

    ComitMaster New Cupcake

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    I think a way to start for the stalkers is when they go stealth damage is reduced greatly but still have stealth as a uesful tool for stalkers just my thoughts tell if you agree with me or not but just my thoughts

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