The Return of the Flying Mount Thread

Are flying mounts really so fast in Wow? In Eq2 they only flew as fast as the ground mounts could run. And in Istaria running along the ground was actualy faster than flight speed...

There are many players that play mmo's that don't feel the need to complete with other players.

Anyone in the world can reach Mt Everest by helicopter...it does not take away from the folks that do it the hard way. They are challenging themselves and want the achievement of their efforts.

I'm quoting myself here, but this was a way to deal with both those that thought flying mounts wound cheapen the amount of people overland, and a way to make it so that what the explorers did was still special. I quote because this was a bajillion pages back.

As for Pvp, well I hate pvp and would never roll on a pvp server, but a fix could be that when you see someone in the air it would dismount them and return them to the ground upon damage. Eq2 did this I believe, though you got a buff when falling so that you were not killed because of falling damage. You were simply hit and then falling to the ground as there was no combat in the air. Though I have to say personally that I see nothing wrong with people running away from a fight they do not wish to partake in.

...Yes, it does take it away from folks who climb there. It also takes it away from the people in the helicopter - the reward is hollow when the task is trivial.

Hollow and trivial rewards means the player needs more content quicker. Developers can only make content so quickly; having people devour content quickly is not a good thing at all. Flying mounts contribute to people devouring content faster.

One of my mantas is "Game design and community go hand in hand." One affects the other, one way or another. You can't put all blame on one party because they're so intertwined. Right now the community is involved in a long series of discussions about one piece of game design because we could have an effect on a game design which could have an effect on the community. It's a vicious cycle, and one that shouldn't be ignore or downplayed.

Also, about the fun thing. Fun is subjective. What one person finds fun, another doesn't, etc. Like I did mention in my previous post: I never said you were wrong, or wrong for finding what I don't like to be fun. I just wanted to present my view point as to why I support something that you might not agree with. I find it fun and builds the kind of game I enjoy. That doesn't mean I'm any more right or wrong than you are, though.

I disagree totally. There are folks that will stay up 7x24 with their buds to get characters to max level. It has nothing to do with flying mounts at all.

In fact many of the climbers who reached the top of Everest didn't like the idea that a helicopter had been able to land there. If you were somehow able to put an elevator to the top of Everest then they would dislike that even more. If someone has the explorer mindset it's not simply about the challenge but rather about getting to places not everyone can get to and seeing things other people haven't.

Did you talk to someone who climbed Everest about this? I don't think they simply are indifferent about any person being able to fly to the top... I think they would still be proud in general about the feat, and get into a lot of fights when someone says, "Why would you spend all that time and effort when you can just fly to the top? It's not like it saves you any money."

That's a nice mantra, but what about EQ? It had a pretty basic game design and a great community.

Let's go farther back ... I'm not sure if you remember Compuserve from the 1980's. There was a game called Isle of Kesmai...started out pixel based ... again a basic game, but great community.

Or farther back to pen and paper ... the players made the game ... the game didn't make the players.

I believe there needs to be boundaries, but not so much as to stifle the game. If I was given the chance by my fairy godmother to change Carbine's mind about their game design. I would NOT. They are the craftsmen and craftswomen. It's like telling Picasso that he just got it wrong. I want to play the game of Carbine's vision.

To your second paragraph, I agree that fun is subjective. Like most, I've played a lot of different games over the years and some were hits but left me MEH. Others were great for me, but didn't survive the public review. There is no one formula for success and it can actually be the 'elements-of-a-game' that work together, creating a synergy, that makes a game successful...when those elements taken separately are not so good.

That's why I don't understand just focusing on flying mounts. We really need to see how they are implemented into the game ... this debate has been more on the implementation of flying mounts in WoW than Wildstar, since we just don't know the facts for Wildstar yet.

No matter how they are, or aren't used in this game ... I'm hoping the game will give us all many hours of entertainment.

Except... Carbine asks for feedback on a regular basis. This thread is to help parse out ideas as to what compromises players are willing to do for flying mounts. Some want full on WoW flying mounts, some want no flying mounts period, but the majority of them want something in between that no longer makes flying just a convenient time saver, but an actual fun aspect of the game.

Again I'll say it. Flight in a game should not be put in so player's don't complain that it's not there, it should be put in so it actually attracts players as something fresh and fun. As of 2012 Jeremy Gaffney alluded to this being the case.

Trivia for grins:

Can you fly a helicopter to the top of Mt Everest?
Yes, it has only been done twice though, in 2005 a solo pilot flew his euro copter to the summit of Mount Everest and touched down for over 4 mins on the summit. However if you flew to the summit, you can't just stop the helicopter, get out and take photos, you probably wouldn't be able to take off again, there is also no way to secure the chopper to the ground. A normal helicopter can not fly to the summit of Mount Everest though, the highest flight by a normal chopper was in 1996 when a helicopter rescued some climbers trapped at the south col.

I think all that means is that those games had designs that were conducive to good communities forming. It's not about how basic a design is but rather if the systems in place encourage cooperation, interaction respect for other players. Indeed its the more advanced systems of game design (match-making, flying mounts, heavy instancing, phasing etc.) that people are worried about.

But with a ladder or a lowering harness you can lower ANYONE down (assuming normal human weights...), even a 250 lb 5'8" tall 90 year old that's just fat.

You had me until you specified flying mounts.... fast travel, maybe...but then again in EQ we had our friendly druid to port us where we needed to go.

I think that it is very hard to fly to the summit...like almost impossible. I think that would work for me in game.

Indeed. Carbine have said on many occasions (and shown us, by their participation on WSC, twitter, etc) that they do want input from the fans.

Sorry I didn't mean only your view, I meant it was an opinion that others might not share. I intend to be an Explorer, and I would never fly to the top of a puzzle to skip it, nor would I personally care if I got up there and someone flew past me. I had fun doing the puzzle, that's what matters.

It really doesn't matter what other people are doing. I started raiding in current WoW again just before 5.2. My guild started on MSV (the first raid), and even though a large portion of people had completed it besides us it in no way made defeating it any less of an accomplishment. I gain satisfaction from my gear knowing now people have tons of heroic ToT gear. My position and what I'm doing make the game fun for me. The fact that people are more progressed than I am doesn't make the game less fun or trivial.

If you mean the content is trivial to the majority then sure I can see that, but if you have less fun doing something that's challenging to you at the time just because someone else has done it already, then that's more of a personal issue.

Sorry but that is ridiculous. I very seriously doubt if you asked a mountain climber "How did you feel after getting to the top", they would come back with "Yea it was cool, but there was this helicopter there and I think I should have just flown up here".

I do agree that hollow and trivial rewards for the effort is bad. But how do flying mounts make content actually easier (besides the one example of explorers puzzles). They don't make raids easier, or solo story content. They don't make PVP easier, assuming both parties are actually fighting and not running away. The fact that you can get to a destination a little faster doesn't directly contribute to the triviality of the actual content.

First, OWPvP has little to do with community, especially the type that one would want to escape via flight.

Second, it only works as an escape button if it works as an escape button. If it has a ten second casting time then it would be tricky to use like that, and if it cannot be used at all in combat then it wouldn't work at all like that. And even after all that, if that's still not enough for the gankers, then none of that applies as a reason to change how they function on PvE servers.

That would be a function of poor game design that has nothing to do with mounts. If you could instantly teleport to any location in the game at will, and you only ever see other players for three seconds then that is a poorly designed game. You should see people constantly, with or without flight. Flight has nothing to do with that. If you do not land where you are headed on your flying mount, and find at least a half dozen players engaged in activities, preferably more, then they have designed a <REDACTED> game, and it wouldn't matter if you'd arrived there via flying mount, teleport, ground mount, or on foot.

Interaction does not happen in transit, how you travel has nothing to do with player interaction. Interaction happens at destinations, and as long as they have plenty of interesting destinations to be at, interaction will be just fine.

I don't see why, the cost of materials is based on availability, and availability would be balanced by how easy it is to get. If materials come so cheap with flying, then they would be equally as cheap without it.

Ditto, gold farming would be unaffected by flying mounts.

Both. I'd use the flying mount when there were obstacles in my path and the ground mount when there weren't.

Ok, how about this. Flight or no flight, I GUARANTEE you that as an explorer, there is no location in the game where you will be the only one to find it. It just will not happen. Any place you get to, thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of other players will also have been there. Does it really matter if they flew to do so? Flight or no flight, you're not a snowflake.

And they only make Explorer puzzles easier if Carbine allows them to, which they have no good reason to do.

that's silly, climbing it by hand, even if it had an elevator it wouldnt take away from their skill

just take a look at those free climbers that climb some crazy tall buildings in big citys.

those buildings have elevators, still people like to climb them.

It's the trip that matters, not the destination.

i think this depends on what gives you satisfaction.

If it is the joy of suprassing your own limits.

or if its the feeling of superiority of other people who would not be able to match their skill of climbing.

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Pop quiz... can anyone tell me what is happening in this picture? I'll let you in on the details momentarily but first I want to explain what this is doing here in the "The Return of the Flying Mount" thread; I'm here to provide evidence that flying mounts have not and will not ruin World PVP.​

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As you can see in the picture, four players have encountered each other in the world. "Corp Por" is a spell incantation which translates to "Energy Bolt" meaning that the two facing the northeast are more than likely PKers (Player Killers, the original bad boys of World PVP). "Kal Ort Por" is also a spell incantation, it's translation? "Recall". It takes 1.75 seconds for a player to cast "Energy Bolt" in Ultima Online. How long did it take to cast "Recall"? Only 1.25 seconds. The end result? A player who casts "Recall" at the same time as a player who casts "Energy Bolt" will be able to escape via an item previously marked to a specific location in the world known as a 'rune'. What does this have to do with flight? "Recall" had no cool-down, took LESS time to cast (compared to summoning a mount in World of Warcraft; which took 1.5 seconds), and it definitely was not temporary; once the spell was cast, that player was gone. Whether the PKer liked it or not, if they did not interrupt the spell cast in time? Poof!​

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So no, the introduction of flying mounts did not ruin World PVP in any way, shape or form because other tools of evacuation have always been implemented for those of wished to avoid it. Solution back then? Don't let them see you coming. Solution today? Don't let them see you coming. Nothing has changed; it's the same concept as it was over a decade ago.​