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What about dungeon finder?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by JarNod, Aug 1, 2012.

  1. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    I've seen a bunch of posts about things people want in the game, and combined with Monday's social wsuplink, I figured now would be a good time to bring it up.

    What is everyone's thoughts on a Dungeon Finder? I know there are pros and cons to a tool like that (and in my mind more cons) but I want to hear discussion about it.

    One of the biggest arguments FOR having a dungeon finder is that it makes it much easier to find a group. Instead of being required to go back into town and spend 30 minutes spamming "LF Tank for [insert dungeon here]" you can just queue up and continue questing. In my mind this is a bad thing, it streamlines content too much so that there is no need for interaction anymore. Instead of asking people and interacting with them, you just press a button and forget about it till some unseen force ports you to the dungeon where your mute teammates silently fight monsters until the last one is gone. It effectively takes the multiplayer out of MMO. You might as well have 4 bots playing with you through a dungeon.

    A dungeon finder also allows for easier cross server raiding/instancing. This will lower dungeon times, lower "non-questing" times. In my mind, this hurts the community of each server (we'll leave the discussion for single server vs. multiple servers for later). This image is going to have some language so if you're offended by that just skip to below:
    [​IMG]

    When you have no repercussions (no one to tell others of your misdeeds), someone sees no problem with ninjaing loot or just being a general ass. Disregarding the porting method listed in the above point, having cross-server dungeon porting seems to be a bad idea, unless your whole goal is to streamline people as much as possible.

    I guess my biggest problem with dungeon finders is that it gets rid of the "grind" of finding people to instance with. It makes instancing too easy to just press a button and just forget about it, not to mention that it destroys any semblance of a giant world. "Oh you want to run a dungeon? I'll port you so that you don't ever have to find this dungeon by yourself and you never have to realize just how big the world is because you can just port there." Not to mention, that tanks/healers don't even need to leave the main cities... they can just open up a dungeon finder and level through that while just sitting there. I think it shows the health of a game when players don't even know where Uldaman is because they've never had to get there.

    But I do understand the hatred for the grind of having to find your own group. If you are going to have a dungeon finder tool, at the very least, you shouldn't port people to the dungeon, but rather you should still make them run there. This would keep the world seemingly large while still having a "community feel" because you're still traveling with them before the dungeon.

    But, JarNod, what's the point of instancing anyways then? You have to spend so much time to get to the dungeon, why wouldn't you just quest? Well, that's where the loot comes in. Can you level faster by continuing questing without dungeoning? Sure, but it's easier to level with some nice loot. The reward for the grind should be enough for people to want to do it. But without the grind, people feel like they didn't accomplish anything.

    But I want to hear everyone's thoughts on this.
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  2. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    I am coming after you on this one JarNod.
    Dungeon Finder is absolutely necessary for an MMO as big as WOW. You have to have this, some players absolutely would go mad looking for players to run instances with. As far as you go talking bout making instancing easy to get into is a good thing in my mind. You are picking at micro ideals about what feel good scenarios are to you, I stress to you, I do not want to be going through zones trying to connect with players intellectually asking them to group up when I am in a Vent talking to 20+ people. We have completely different attitudes towards gaming, and on that I have to say that these features have to relate to the theme of the game.

    To conclude your point that its a "problem" having dungeon finder, I am going to say that is so micro it is insignificant to notice. It could very well just be in your head, in fact it is just in your head, looking back on what you wrote I do not feel the satisfaction of any the points you maid how best it would be. So whats going on?
  3. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Well first of all, I'm mostly trying to encourage discussion rather than an ad hominem. But I'll go through your points one by one.

    I don't think it's absolutely necessary and this is probably because of differing opinions. I ran every dungeon in WoW while leveling up without the benefit of dungeon finder. So it's not a necessity for people to run dungeons. It may be a convenience, but definitely not necessary.

    How is me picking at "micro details in a feel good scenario to me, stress to me" any different than you saying "I don't want to try and connect with other players when I am in vent." You have one preference and that preference is one where you don't want to try and communicate with other players and I have another where I do want to be forced to communicate. That's why I made this post, because other people have a different opinion on this and I want to hear other peoples thoughts.

    I'm sure there are other people with different opinions than either you or I on this site. That's why I want to encourage discussion. It's on a topic that I find interesting so I decided to post about it.

    I think it's a problem. Other people think differently, I just want to hear why. But I don't think it is a micro point. In an age where people complain constantly about MMOs being too much solo play, a good discussion about something that, in my opinion, encourages solo play with mute, nameless players should be a good thing. Not to mention it's the "micro" things, as you refer to them, that can really help a game be successful. Case in point, one of the most "micro" differences in Rift vs. WoW was the change between taxis in WoW and instant traveling in Rift. By not requiring that players fly over zones and landscapes, the player doesn't get a feeling of epicness or size. If someone could instantly teleport between the US and England, they never would get a sense of how far that really is. So, I do think little things are important to the feel of a game. Lastly, I would love to hear WHY you have your opinion rather than just bashing my opinion.

    What? I don't understand what you mean...
  4. Punx

    Punx Cupcake

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    It really is another one of those issues that rides a fine line between making the process to easy or too tedious, and sadly there isn't a correct answered since individual needs can and will vary. However it is in the realm of the norm now to have it. In my personal opinion I don't particularly care for it since it does remove alot of social aspects and community building (especially if its available from dungeon #1) that you would otherwise thrive on to fill in the play gaps when you might not be in the mood to actually go out and do anything. There are good debates to be had on both sides of the fence.

    I want to add this(yes another personal quip)..... the game I spent alot of my time on without dungeon finder (because dungeons werent the end to be all) is the game i have met and kept a vast majority of really close friends on as opposed to feeling more disconnected from more recent in game's communities that implemented a dungeon finder.
  5. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    My point is to reach across and let you know where its coming from. Since you are so well informed of feels you would agree that it would be necessary to have a dungeon finder having necessary put in logical context. Its a convenience for you but a necessity for me. As far a vent goes, it shows that I am already connected with people through voice chat, certainly you would get the sense that it would not be an efficient use of game time to go around looking for players to join a group for an instance, it does not have the same feel as you idealize. Its not about opinions at this point, more so the gaming preferences and the type of player base this game will bring. You can still do what you do with a dungeon finder implemented. For you this is more of a finding like minded individuals to roleplay with to get that sense you are after. Is it not?
  6. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    So if I'm understanding you correctly, you don't think there is any problem with a dungeon finder?
  7. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    Mostly, I'm curious to see if someone can invent a good way so that it doesn't feel disconnected from community without spending 30 minutes looking for a group. Do you have any thoughts?
  8. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    I think you really do understand where the lack in communities comes from.
  9. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    There are hidden aspects of every game that makes one game more enjoyable to certain people than another one. I've already stated my opinion on dungeon finder and given my reasons for it, I was hoping others would state their opinion and give their reasons.

    I agree that
    can be very true. But why is it a necessity? In my opinion, a dungeon finder lessens the "grind" of finding a group and therefore cheapens the dungeon as a result. If someone is given money without working for it, he would value money less. So it is with video games. Like Punx said, there's a fine line making the process to easy or too tedious, and I just want to hear other user's opinions and why they think the way they do.

    I would agree that one of the nicest things about a guild is the ability to pull players you know into a group quickly. It's probably the biggest reason people join guilds, but I don't see what that has to do with having a dungeon finder... could you enlighten me?

    I think that gaming preferences and opinions are the exact same thing. And I believe that a company that is publishing an MMO should think about it because they should think about the player base their decisions bring in. Do they want the hardcore MMO players, who still play Asheron's Call or Everquest and understand what a grind is? or perhaps the vanilla WoW players who enjoyed the more casual approach of quests to level while still having a huge difficulty curve? Or do they want to pick up the Cataclysm players who didn't even see Azeroth because they spent the entire time porting into dungeons to level up? Each of these types of players bring pros and cons to the table. A game focused on grabbing most of the modern day WoW players by providing bells and whistles such as dungeon finder, cross server raids and pvp fights, and pets needs to understand that it will get a lot of the players who want instant gratification and don't understand that it takes time and hard work to get something good.

    It's actually about an aspect of the game that I believe encourages the community to work together by requiring communication vs. clicking a button to find 4 other people who barely talk to each other. Mostly, I want to hear others' opinions on the subject. You've stated you need a dungeon finder... WHY?

    I still don't understand what you're trying to say here.
  10. Punx

    Punx Cupcake

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    My thoughts on bettering it would be to stop making the content revolve around it, it's nice to fill in some areas but putting more focus on getting people out into the world would be a huge step in halting the disconnect. I'd much rather have things localized to the server I am on than queue > wait > survive > take loot with people I doubt I'll even remember in an hour.
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  11. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    Looking for the dungeon and doing the dungeon its self is two different "instances." The satisfaction you stress about in looking for a group is not a satisfaction to me. The value that this ideal brings to you is micro and insignificant to me and for a lot of players. Think of it this way for the time being, dungeon finder is a in game service that links players who want to get into the instance and get in as soon as possible. How many times where you not able to find a group to do an instance you really wanted to do that day. As far as your value in that this brings to you for me its a complete waste when you add how repetitive this can get.
    As far as the company go I think they already know what kind of player will be a fan of the game. Lets say your gaming preference is more on the lore side, when you get a chance to read the lore in game you can learn what they are about. You will have different opinions then me. On this topic we do not share the same view on what makes an active community. Dungeon finder encourages active players.
  12. Snaggles

    Snaggles Cupcake

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    I don't know if it's necessary but if some people enjoy using them why not? It's certainly more functional than some of the social add-ons which clutter the UI and detract from the game.

    As someone who spent far too many hours shouting "____ level _____ LFG Group" I never used the WoW one. I soloed zone trash or organized my junk while watching TV and waiting.
  13. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    I'm sorry, I wasn't meaning to tell people how they should play. I just wanted to hear people's opinions on the matter. I figured that I should give a rational reason for my opinion and that's why there's a giant wall of text to start out with.
  14. Tiktak

    Tiktak Cupcake-About-Town

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    Personally I believe the dungeon finder pretty much destroyed a lot of the community spirit in WoW. Yes it was convienient, but back in say Vanilla, you could recognize and (omg) even chat with your fellow group members! You started to earn a reputation for being a decent player or bad one... People remembered you.

    During Wrath, I don't think I talked much to the mindless drones I was grouping with a lot of the time. And dungeons didn't feel as much fun either. I ended up stopping using the Dungeon Finder after a few months and started only grouping with my guild mates.

    Then as cataclysm came along, my guild disbanded pretty much, most people had moved on so I left and joined another guild... They spent all their time raiding and running Dungeon Finder as individuals... I never really felt I fitted in beyond guild chat, eventually moving on from WoW to other games.

    On another note though... the guild finder in WoW was too basic, and didn't really let you find a group of like-minded individuals to hang around with. It was all about spamming what guild perks each had.
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  15. Sprby

    Sprby Cupcake

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    How do you even begin to link these personal attitudes of the common player with a feature as awesome as a dungeon finder? As far as that goes I think you dig too deep into the game to realize that these attitudes are a part every day "life." You have to come out of the box and take a different approach in talking to people. You can not expect people to role play with you all day.
  16. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    This is why DF features are popular, when done well, because it is the most attractive choice for the majority:

    1. Sure, gathering people has a value - longterm. For a 30 minutes deal somewhere, not so much if any at all, unless you are good at getting groups together. Not all of us are, a majority is not, it is always the same people getting groups started in guild, the same people on the server spamming chats for groups and raids.
    If I were to get skills in people rallying, I would prefer it to be in another more stable and longterm feature, such as guild recruitment, I highly dislike having to judge a character on the fly.

    2. Doing the dungeon is the value of the dungeon. Encounter mechanics gives dungeons value, intricate puzzles gives dungeons value, specific loot gives a dungeon value, quest or path objectives gives a dungeon value, awesome visual design gives the dungeon value.
    If the dungeon only is as valuable as how long it takes to get 3-5 other people together to do it, no need to put it in at all.

    3. Dungeon finder features - if it works well - enables me to go about my own stuff all over the world until the group pops, rather than sit twiddle my thumbs in a main city until at tank responds to chat spam.

    4. Dungeon finder features - if it works well - makes sure I do not have to nanny people, who are delusional about how good their gear or what they can get away with, since some has no issues abusing strangers, because people are too polite to kick them after the group is formed (myself included, I don't kick, I don't accidentally DC etc., I politely waste my time until everyone else leaves, if the group is full of undergeared scrubs, who thinks they can get carried). I play for fun, it is not my job to tell people, that they need to upgrade all of their gear before doing a harder one.

    5. I am not lazy and I work on my gear until the dungeon is the next upgrade up for most of it, I expect the same respect from the people I group with, and a Dungeon Finder feature done well filters out the most delusional.

    6. I wish all dungeons were scalable, so it fits your encounter power and hands out loot according to that power level - up to the point where raiding or high end crafting is the only option, naturally. But so no dungeon ever goes out of style as a only-lowbie hunting ground, but stays exciting, because there is different triggers for different dungeon events and quest objectives according to encounter power.
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  17. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    I see the appeal of not spending 20-30 minutes looking for a group. I found that when I spent the time to chat with people while looking for a group, I formed a lot more connections than I ever did with a Dungeon Finder. "This guy was a good healer... I'm putting him on my friends list, so we can raid again sometime." I know you can do that with a Dungeon Finder, but because you didn't have to try to find that last spot, I just pretty much ignored players. This is more of a time-efficient method though, and it's a great point in Dungeon Finder's favor

    I don't really disagree with you there.

    This is the worst thing for me. I hate that I'm allowed to go quest in the world and then get ported into the dungeon. It does come down to personal preference, but it just feels too easy. I feel like that's part of the problem with modern day MMOs. It's way to easy to let things happen to you, rather than be proactive about it. Wanna do a dungeon? Just go do dailies until the queue pops, once the dungeon is finished, please continue questing. It's mindless and boring. Perhaps you see it differently though. Do you find that it makes instancing too easy? Or am I off my rocker? :p

    This is a problem with WoW and while I understand the frustration of dealing with idiots who think they are the cat's pajamas, I don't think that attaching a gear score to determine whether or not a player is "fit" for a dungeon is a good thing. Some players are very skilled and overcome gear. Some gear score elitists are terrible players. There's more to a goalie than just saves, and a dungeon finder that encourages only looking at a stat only encourages people to ignore everything but that achievement/gear score. Sometimes you just have to leave a group, though some of my best MMO stories are from PuGs and not grouping with friends... so there is that... :p

    Unless you're filtering on gear score, it seems like an argument for not using a dungeon finder. :p

    Scaling the dungeon up, rather than the players down, is a really interesting idea, but it feels similar to Hard Mode. That's a discussion for another day.

    All in all, it seems you need someone to tank for you, Siega... I'll be happy to oblige at some point :p
  18. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I dislike that people can zone directly into a dungeon they never entered the manual way before. Usually the dungeons is part of the end line of lore somewhere, and not knowing how to get there means they missed a lot of content or just didn't care in their race for end game. I would like there to be gating, either a quest, a puzzle or something to open up a dungeon, and clear the dungeon once, before one can laviously make use of it through a dungeon finder.
    After that, instant port to the dungeon to kill the same boss for the 100th time is nice. I found it, there is not need for me to spend 10 minutes (on WoW that would be the case) to get to whichever the group is destined for - time waste on repeated commute is in real life conflicted and seriously, it does not take anything out of my immersion to make it instant, when I have already killed the boss 99 times.

    Call it gear score, but it is ilvl, item level, since gear score, the addon, has evolved into something that checks more than ilvl. The dungeon finder is not strict, it is not elitist, it only sorts the very worse out and make sure that they are put into dungeons more fit their gear. Ilvl shows what gear they should most likely work on first, though knowing their class primary stats is useful too in that department :p

    A lot of people can enter with higher ilvl gear and fail because they lack the skills or never understood the encounter, a lot of people can enter with intro gear and outperform someone with better gear due to skills and situational awareness and making sure to reforge (bad stat to hit stat) to at least be able to hit the boss.

    If an elitist player was to manually gate it, he/she would require far higher ilvl than that of the dungeon finder, because they want it done fast and with no wipes and with people that most likely did it before, so they do not have to explain something on the way (even if they are the "dungeon guide" and supposed to do so).

    I just want Dungeon Finder to make sure that people likely can actually hit the bosses and likely can take a wee bit of unavoidable aoe damage, meaning, a bare minimum of gear required for the level of content. It should not be my job to check people for bare minimum gear requirements for not getting oneshot the first time they fail to run out of the BIG PURPLE CIRCLE under their feet for 2 ticks.

    I am ok with having to explain the mechanics, if it is someone new to the dungeon. I enjoy a group, where there is constructive talk, and those happens often enough in WoW, if you make sure to start out you own role in the group in a friendly, polite manner.

    Opposit, this is the strenght of the well done dungeon finder, the gating of people into instance that fits their gear.

    I love that the dungeon finder filter people for me, and they know - from the game itself, not me - that the reason why they can not yet queue for a specific dungeon is because they need to work some more on it.
    Unfortunately until MoP release, in WoW they can just put some pvp gear on - which is indeed upgrades to quest greens, but has a too high ilvl currently, underperfoming same ilvl pve gear and some groups kick a low performing dps in pvp gear, even if the dps is high enough to make do for the dungeon. When MoP comes out pvp stats will no longer count on ilvl and that hole will be closed.

    I would hate to make fail groups, because I refuse checking gear and filtering people in person. I would hate the risk of wasting a lot of precious time because I failed picking a good enough group. So I would not group without a dungeon finder, simple as that.

    I should be able to expect people to be old enough - in progress and mind - to be up for the job they sign in for and not needing me or a group leader to tell them that they really can not do a hard dungeon with only quested green 3 tiers down that gives them less health than what the boss aoe does per tick.

    Going to hold you to that!

    ok, enough on that, I have repeated myself multiple times now :p
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  19. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

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    I can see the appeal of this. one of my problems (as I've also stated numerous times) is the accessibility that porting in requires. If there was some kind of lore mechanic that allowed porting in after you beat the encounter, that would be a step in the right direction.

    As for your other points, time efficiency is important to some, and others enjoy using their time to look for groups. Thanks for the well thought out response though.
  20. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    That magnificient thing about Dungeon Finder is that those who enjoys finding groups the old way can still do that. The Dungeon Finder being there does not prevent people from using the old fashioned method.

    However, the lack of a Dungeon Finder means only those enjoying spending time looking for group has fun with groups.

    So having _a good_ Dungeon Finder is one up on not having one.

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