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What are your "almost" deal breakers?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Nexus Elites, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    Relax, the time you spend getting frustrated on the forum, you can get to level 15. Or even at level 10 you'd start seeing it. There will be death, there will be accident multi-pull, there will be one shots. You mentioned Diablo III, I know what you mean, I glass cannoned (literally, glass cannoned. One touch of ANYTHING kills me) to Inferno Diablo within 2 weeks of the game's launch, zombie bear + 5 cc/buff/escape short-medium CDs --- And I'm telling ya, you won't wait long until you start dying in Wildstar, especially if you're alone and you're going into caves and whatnot, easily overwhelmed if you're not careful. Class makes a difference too, Espers will find them dying or almost dying before lvl 10, spellslingers will have problem with the 35 m range pulling extra mobs in dense areas and they're next. Stalkers can just stealth past mobs and burst down some of them (not going to happen past level 10), medic can always run away and heal up, so they're not that bad, but if you're not careful extra pulls will still kill you. Warrior I haven't played so I won't comment on it, Engineer, if you just have a bruiserbot out and pull very carefully one by one (using electrocute instead of mortar, etc, make it very plain and simple), leveling won't be that hard. Multi-pull will still kill you fast though. If you want to practice for dungeon/pvp and whatnot and want to use high dps/burst setup for leveling, you'll be dying as an engineer too. Not as bad as the Esper, but you'll die. If you know what you're doing and you have the right skills on your LAS, you can solo the group 2+ mobs before 15. But later on, as you specialize more and more into your own role, it becomes nearly impossible.

    Also, dodge can be AMPed. Which means later on, when you have enough AMP points, you can put them into enhancing your dodge to either have effect or simply regen faster (in utility tree). Dodge in Wildstar is not an immunity frame like GW2 however, it is just a short distance teleport basically, targeted attacks/skills such as mob auto-attack will still hit you. In leveling, obviously you use dodge to get out of telegraph, you can also use dodge to kite the mob a little so that it doesn't come into auto attack range, or maybe even dodge out of his auto-attack range as he's about to hit, but it just doesn't do immunity frame. Any class can put in a good 10-15 seconds without taking damage if your LAS is setup for it AND you're on your toes. Beyond that, you'd take at least auto-attack damage, and that's why there are healers. In other words, you shouldn't be running out of dodges like crazy, 'cause you don't need to dodge everything that the mob does, sometimes it's better to use a defensive CD because that auto is going to hit you anyways so you try to mitigate the damage, sometimes it's better to sprint away to get distance (you get dazed if the mob hits you while you're sprinting so this requires timing too) which helps more in kiting compared to relying solely on dodge. Sometimes you cc, sometimes you teleport, basically dodge shouldn't run out constantly. Besides, when you're dodging you're not attacking. Glass cannon would only work in Diablo III because of, well, the cannon part. The longer you wait, the more chances that your skills are on CD when you need it, coupled with the more chances for you to make mistakes, and the higher chance you'd simply die.

    But all talking is just that, talking, including the examples that I'm speaking of. I really think you should simply level up a bit more and you'd see for yourself.

    As for the control, it's just not simple like that. Though I don't know if it works now, but allowing players to bind skill buttons to mouse button is certainly intended, that's why they designed and gave us the key binding interface to begin with. Bind your LAS 1 and 2 to two mouse buttons and put your spams in there if you'd like. The reason that it doesn't do what Diablo does is because it is a 3D camera, whereas Diablo is 2D and doesn't need camera steering. The reason that it doesn't do what FPS do (and Tera, Dragon Nest etc) is because the crosshair can be very awkward for people especially when it's an mmo and there's a lot of other things you do outside of combat. I've been playing Dragon Nest from mmmmmany years ago and it still gets awkward, so I can't agree with you that we should get other types of control.

    They will fix things and change things, but there is limited resource so it's gotta be on their own schedule, and I'd much rather them solve more game-impairing bugs and even class balance first. For the mean time, addons are temporary relief for those who want it immediately. It's not an "excuse" per se, Carbine never said "you can get an addon for that", it's the community talking about it and giving suggestions. More like "OK, you have a problem with that I can sympathize, here are ways you can deal with this problem for now".

    Now, having said that, I don't even agree in the first place that the "extremely simple" implementations you talked about are "obvious choices" (Talking about the camera issue). They're not. Debatable at best, and I'm going to go so far as to say that it's good riddence to get away from the FPS-mmo hybrid. They're not intuitive, they can get very frustrating, and they're awkward in an mmo even now, almost a decade after Dragon Nest brought that view point into the genre. If I want to play a FPS I'll go play a FPS --- Because in FPS games there's no constantly needing to switch back and forth between modes to chat/trade skill/check bags/equip gear/other things every time that my character moves even a step.

    Action combat has nothing to do with camera, example: GW2. Free aiming is the defining characteristic. In fact, there's only a handful of mmos with FPS like camera, such as Tera, Dragon Nest and now ESO. It was that way because that was nothing else before it, that was the first time that people tried to put action into mmo, and they came up with the hybrid. It's by far not the holy grail, not even close, it's the very first iteration of a hybrid system, and it simply treat it as that --- a hybrid, two independent modes, a trigger to switch between modes. Where 1 + 1 = 2, nothing more arise out of it, no innovation and really a rather lazy way of putting things together. Just not elegant design. It's like when two company merge, they'd keep them completely separate instead of taking advantage of each other's expertise and merging/getting rid of common departments. While that hybrid mode certainly didn't kill me, if there are new ways of tackling this interface I'm cheering them on, period. So it's not Carbine that you need to battle with if you want to change the fundamental camera/control style of the game, you'd first need to get through the rest of us players, see what we prefer.

    Having said that, I agree that the binding of LAS to mouse keys should be enabled (has anyone checked to make sure it doesn't?) but this is something that they'd likely intended to include into the game from the start, if they allow us to bind LAS keys to other keys, then they should have no problem allowing mouse buttons to be used. IF they can find a way to allow alternative camera/control styles to be added into the game without breaking any major components, that's welcomed too. Regardless of how much I don't like it, some people prefer the FPS type of camera, having that option for them won't hurt me. But again, Carbine needs to get around to it, and with so many things going on right now before official launch we just have to be patient. We're not saying that this isn't an issue, but just saying, there's an addon for that if you're really bothered by it and want it fixed IMMEDIATELY. What many of us DON'T agree is for Carbine to put off everything else and work on these "issues" first.

    You get a headache and we give you a pill to relieve the pain. If you keep saying "No! I don't want a pill! Just get rid of my headache!" there's not only nothing that we can do short of a miracle, it is also a direct slap on the face for everyone who tried to make suggestions in the first place. Not cool. If there's a button that Carbine can push that makes everyone happy I'm sure they'll push it, in fact 80% of the population on earth probably will do it. But things simply don't work that way. There ain't no product if there ain't no work, and there ain't no work if there ain't no time put into it.
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  2. Fishsticks

    Fishsticks Cupcake-About-Town

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    I respectfully disagree with this analogy. Just because something isn't standard doesn't mean it's not totally reasonable to include. To keep with your same car manufacturing example - up until 1989 you were not required to manufacture a car with a driver-side seat belt or airbag. In other words, Airbags/Seat belts didn't come "Standard" on automobiles - By your logic, consumers should have gone out and bought their own safety devices rather than requiring the industry standard to change.


    I take your point, but from my perspective it's more along the lines of being forced to stare into a florescent light all day - when you complain that you get a headache, they offer you some Advil to fix your headache. That's nice and all, but how about you just change the god damn light bulb instead? Pills only address the symptoms of your headache, not the cause.

    If this addon is easily created and connected to the game, I find it hard to believe Carbine would have much difficulty/have to commit many resources to implementing it or a toggle feature for it (especially considering they have already been working on the UI, and as someone pointed out, this particular addon was at least partially developed by the Devs themselves).

    Oh also GW2 is tab targeting
  3. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    Obviously, if it was as easy as you say it would be to integrate, test, and maintain this add-on right before launch they would have done it. Obviously it is not that easy, and we don't know how many people utilize this, or similar add-ons, so we don't know what kind of ROI there would be.

    I use Deadlock Extended, but for a lot of the time I keep the mouse un-locked while questing as there are a lot of things to interact with (both UI and environment) that the toggle is more trouble than it is worth. It isn't a huge necessity for questing purposes and holding right click is second nature at this point for a lot of MMORPG players.
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  4. Fishsticks

    Fishsticks Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm confused. Here you're saying that because this addon would be difficult to implement and maintain, it wont be included in the game, but that implies everything which could reasonably be included in the game, has been/will be. Is that what you're saying?


    So if implementing A was easy, it would be in the game. Therefore because A is not in the game, it must be difficult to include. Since B, C, and D, are present in the game, they must have been easy to implement and maintain, otherwise they would not be included in the game.

    Just trying to follow the logic
  5. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    You "respectfully" disagree just so you have something to fight over.
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  6. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

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    The logic doesn't follow because difficulty is not the only factor in deciding what is implemented or not and I didn't imply that difficulty was the only factor. My post was about difficulty relative to return on investment and limited resources. At this moment, Carbine is only looking for bug fixes and "quick wins". Implementing Deadlock as a default option is not either of those things. They obviously decided their limited resources would be better used elsewhere, especially since there is an add-on solution for players to utilize. They already have to fix default UI bugs (e.g. Datacron minimize).

    They need to dedicate their limited resources to things that impact everyone and to things that cannot be solved through add-ons. Since not everyone will want to utilize the mouse-lock feature it makes sense for it to stay in the sphere of add-on development until after launch. This, as Livn explained, is the very advantage to creating/supporting a fully modifiable UI.
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  7. Dalrok

    Dalrok New Cupcake

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    Honestly the game meets my expectations, however: Once Carbine starts putting less effort into the game I might get disappointed but they are already doing a better job than I remember a lot of companies doing in terms of letting the Beta Players really contribute rather than "Let us know what doesn't work, we don't care about anything else cause thats how it's supposed to be."
  8. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is the thing, we can give you Advil, but we can't change the light bulb. For many reasons. In this case we physically can't change the light bulb, we're just people on the forum, we're not the dev team, we really can't do anything else. Sometimes we don't like others to suggest alternatives because it feels like they're belittling our problem, but that's a common assumption that more often than not misses the mark. In this case well, most of us can't do anything to help you other than making a suggestion, and those who REALLY treat your problem seriously and REALLY want to help you would've spent their own time writing the addon, which you seemed to be somewhat attacking. So it is a bit odd to me, feels like asking US for help and when we provide something like addon/suggestions you say "No I don't want YOUR help I want THEIR help."

    In other cases, changing the light bulb may require money and we don't have it. Our wallet is tight and we'd rather spend that 1 dollar on food rather than on a light bulb. Assuming that I'm one with the Dev team, I'd for sure devote my hours on bug fixes compared to adding another control module to the game when the original one works sufficiently well for the majority of people. So in this case, if it is MY game (it is not, of course), I'd be very sympathetic and I certainly hope that you don't feel bad, but I've got a schedule to keep to, making you feel better now will make many others feel worse simply because I can't work on everyone's problem at once, so I'm sorry but you've got to wait.

    There are things that I'm quite certain are the results of bugs and/or unintentional, for example the way that skills do not darken on CD/lack of resource/lack of pre-requisite, it was introduced by UI 2.0 and wasn't here before so we can assume they didn't mean it, they'll fix it eventually. There's the reputation tab bug. There's costumes and dye. There's housing plot occasional invisible barrier. There's the grouping problems. These are all small bugs, but BUGS, and they take priority over things like adding in a completely new alternative control scheme. I'd go so far as to say that before these bugs are fixed they should not allocate ANY resource to adding in new things, no matter how small that new thing seems to be.

    And talking about quick fixes, yeah this is not rocket science, but doesn't mean it will happen right away, you still need several hours of coding at least, and sufficient testing because unlike addons, these are official components which will be met with heavy criticism if it performs sub-par. It'll take the dev team maybe 2 days to flesh out, but that is 2 days of not fixing bugs, not optimizing performance. Some of the existing small bugs would for sure take even less time to fix so "it's easy to add in this new control scheme" isn't a sufficient reason to jump over the bugs.

    And GW2 is somewhat a hybrid but it's still in my opinion, action combat. You cast something, and it depends on the opponents action whether or not he gets hit by it. This precise definition debate is rather beside the point, the presence of such a debate in the first place though is exactly my point: As people like you and me are not even agreeing on the definition for "action-combat", it is a mute point to assign the FPS control style to action combat like if it's already an established golden standard.
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  9. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    I can't be an aurin or draken engineer or medic. I really don't want to be a generic human race because it's so unlike me but I happen to like humans aesthetically more than any other race.
  10. Nexus Elites

    Nexus Elites Cupcake

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    Going back to the discussion about locked vs unlocked, I think the most noticeable annoyance when locked (sticky) is when pulling multiple mobs, and sometimes your telegraphs won't hit everything. Outside of that, I don't see why staying unlocked on single target fights is to your advantage.

    Also, mobs can auto attack, and we can't. You HAVE to be spamming buttons at all times to be dealing damage (unless you're on a class with DoTs), and that can seem annoying at first. I've made it abundantly clear that I dislike MMO's going out of their way to come up with gimmick mechanics, and I sincerely hope the combat on Wildstar works out. I'd also be lying if I said I wouldn't like it more if it had WoW-type combat. The personality the game has is amazing...the characters, the cut scenes, the funny dialogue, the amazing in-depth crafting system, unique talent trees, and then I get to the combat and I just shake my head. I don't know if they were purposely trying to draw in FPS players first, over typical MMORPG players, but that's the vibe I get.

    I'll keep playing it, and hopefully it will grow on me, but after several beta weekends, I still don't feel comfortable when fighting a mob. I have to think extra hard on what buttons I'm pressing while watching for red telegraphs and it just feels awkward. Maybe its because I'm getting older and don't have the reaction times I used to :p
  11. Benevon

    Benevon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't think that drawing FPS players was their main intention. Perhaps one of the earlier games that used the action style combat with a reticule. The action combat just seems to be the new evolution of MMOs. I do hope it grows on you as I want people to enjoy this game as much as I do.

    And the previous discussion about locked and unlocked was about the mouse and using an addon to lock the mouse so you wouldn't have to use the right mouse button to turn (and use a toggle key to switch between cursor and mouse turning) similar to ESO, DCUO and NWO. If that is what you were referring to.
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  12. Fiarre Catcher

    Fiarre Catcher New Cupcake

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    I am totally enjoying Beta .. and I am commited to playing for many months ahead (there's just SOOO much to do!! cant wait!! :))-- just a few things that bug me atm though are:

    1. Looting - REALLY dislike the loot icons and the whole way you never really feel 'rewarded' when you pick up loot or get it from quest rewards - not sure if its bugged or just unpolished.
    2. Still not overly fussed in the World Map -- something still feels clunky about it but will see what next few weeks brings
    3. Quest Log - not sure if this is buggy/unfinished - tho this is much improved, it still feels clunky when I want to open up my quest log and poke around in it (eg checking progress or wanting to check rewards)
    4. Too many quests - I LOVE questing and lvling, but the overabundance of quests makes me feel I can't leave an area till its cleared. Maybe just a few less ?
  13. Pejo

    Pejo Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yea, I've been using addons to combat the bad quest log. I've been using BetterQuestLog and ClassicQuestDialog for that. I also feel the same about loot but haven't found something that helps it feel more rewarding.
  14. Quietus

    Quietus Cupcake

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    With regards to the loot issue, could it be the lack of 'feedback' that makes it feel less rewarding? It's all too subtle somehow. I often don't notice that I've picked up anything remotely useful until I'm at a vendor to sell off all the <REDACTED> I've picked up so I'll have space for more <REDACTED> to vendor. Since you can just vacuum up nearby loot with a single button press, you don't really pay much attention to those colored outlines the items have. Perhaps it would feel more rewarding if those useful items stood out a bit more?
  15. Benevon

    Benevon Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd like the loot to be logged in the chat rather than the quick flashes of what you got at the top of the screen. I think that alone would make it stand out a bit more. The icons themselves are pretty nice but when you are questing, a lot people will just be hitting vacuum and moving on (I do).
  16. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    OK, hopefully I will survive the boredom until I hit lvl 10-15, so I will give it a try when game is out. Regarding controls I kind of got used to use thumbstick on my razer orbwaver, so now WS's controls shouldn't give me any trouble. I just hope that other people won't loose their patience first and quit forever. What I actually mean is that I hope that enough of them keep playing so those who live decide to give the game another try couse of its great popularity (if actually becomes popular the first place which remains to be seen).
  17. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    Am I the only one who does not enjoy huge areas at the start of the game. I liked simple quests in small areas a better inroduction to game (like in WoW). I just feel there is too many confusion going on at start. Big area, lots of NPCs which you don't really know if you should avoid them or not, not to mention controls. Also why did I actually have to equip my first gun. It should be already equipped when I got it. I was killed by first mob as I though I should punch him to death. I wasn't even aware of having anything in my inventory then (but I think I had that gun from the very beginning just lying in my inv).
  18. Kataryna

    Kataryna Super Cupcake

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    ummm...the first things you have to kill don't auto-aggro onto you, so i don't know how you almost got killed? Arkship - you get a big pop-up that says "hey, here's your weapon, this is how you equip your weapon!" because it's a tutorial - some people have never played MMOs, if you can believe that, and don't know how to equip a weapon. and if you're talking about in the first zones after the Arkship, then i don't know how you got through the Arkship without having your weapon equipped?
  19. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok, I won't dispute difficulty. I just haven't got enough patience in getting to lvl 10 (or it wasn't enjoyable enough cause all the confusion I've face at the start with large area full of NPC and control scheme) so I gave up. Regarding controls if I didn't get used to my razer orbwaver I wouldn't pick this game again. But now it should be all right as I can control all with thumbstick very well. Regarding MMO mouse I believe that in heat of fight I would start pressing all those buttons accidently on that mouse so I don't want to use it (but then it may be something you can learn to use like I did with my orbweaver). I will give WS a very long another try when it is out and get to at least lvl 30 with warrior and spellslinger before I decide if to play it further or stop. Hope fully I won't be disappointed.

    Btw, I would like to see WS to be usable with xbox controller (I don't want to start a fight here, I just rather have simple controls even with cost of some game complexities).
  20. Gronky

    Gronky Cupcake-About-Town

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    nope, it was arkship. But maybe in all that confusion I forget to read some instructions. Don't know really anymore.

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