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what can Wildstar learn from Guild Wars 2?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by salluks, Jul 13, 2013.

  1. selodaoc

    selodaoc Cupcake-About-Town

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    What GW2 did wrong and shouldnt be added:

    Remove of Trinity:
    While good on paper it doesnt work in practise. It makes for much less strategial fight and often turns into chaos.
    Everyone tries to dps as much as possible, until they take agro, and then start running in circles until someone else does enough dps and takes agro and then starts running in circles. It makes the fights really dumb.

    It also makes it almost impossible to have any raids since you cant tell people to this and that, keep the tank up etc.


    No Gear Progression or Character Progression:
    Makes endgame really really boring, theres no goals except dressing your doll, i mean character, in a new dress. People use the "the whole game is endgame" but thats bullcrap, it doesnt have more content then a game with actual endgame.


    NO homing on skills:
    Actioncombat works well for melee classes.
    For mage and healer classes it doesnt work so well. If you as a mage jave a lot of ground target aoe skills, players or even npc enemies arent stupid enough to jsut stand in that big red circle while you kill them.
    No they run up to your face and hit you instead.
    The same goes for ground puddle heals, good luck making your whole team stand it getting hit by AoE.

    No homing on ST skilsl also sucks. Take a fireball, you shoot it at you enemy, what does he do? stand still and let it hit him in his face? no, he moves 1 step to the sde and the spell flies past him. Its a little bit easier for a Archer since arrows is harder to see and a bit faster.

    Ranged skills needs a bit of homing, and healing needs targetable distibution.


    Forcing People to go to lowlvl Areas:

    Unless you did ALL heartquests in all areas, it was hard to get enough exp to continue. It felt more like a job then fun going to areas you already outleveled. There were no rewards and you character didnt progress. Dont force people to go to Areas that are to low lvl for them.
  2. Isgu

    Isgu Cupcake-About-Town

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    We take our Wildstar stuff seriously! :p
    And as long as I didn't hear wrong it's all good ^^
  3. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Has it been confirmed that they have retained half a million subs? I saw them give that figure when they were just launching the idea of F2P, I would imagine a number of people were either already considering quitting at that point (it was still within the 6 month sub package, I believe), and that a number more would decide to drop to F2P when given the option. I'm highly skeptical that they currently have 5ooK paying subscribers today.

    I make statements that are true within the context I make them in, but if you try to take them out of that context they may become confused. If there's a point I make that you do not understand, please point it out and I'll help you.

    I can't blame you for missing the point I was making entirely and focusing on the trees of the argument rather than the forest, but I don't have to support you in it either.

    Ok, first, why would they lay off a massive amount of people if they were making plenty of money to fund the sustained development of the game? It's over a year and a half since launch, and they've added less content than GW2 has added in their first six months, AND they charged extra for it. Second, if they were doing so great then why did they need to do massive server consolidations within the first six months? Third, I still haven't seen a source for that "made back their money in the first three months" claim, which is very hard to believe.

    They had more leveling content than any other game, and they had 32 endgame dungeons.

    It actually has a LFG tool, it's just not very good so nobody uses it. It's really not a problem though, GW2LFG.com does the job perfectly well, and if it didn't then they probably would have put more priority into developing their own.

    No I don't, I'm responding to multiple different posts, so I copy and paste individual responses, rather than using the built in quote features, and typing out the code to lead back to the source on each post is too complicated. [quote] and [/quote] is enough for me. If you want to find the source, it's not that hard, it's somewhere between this post and the last. Also, if you post in a thread, keep track of it, whether someone replies to you or not. You don't need to have Alerts to know that you should be reading the threads you posted in. Most boards don't even have alerts.
  4. Trigger

    Trigger Cupcake

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    Another thing that GW2 has is culling. And although I've been told that other MMOs usually have some form of culling, I never noticed it.

    GW2's culling is bad, even after it's removal in pvp I am waiting anxiously for ArenaNet to get rid of culling. Culling is when players and objects start disappearing when there is too much clutter on your screen. Unfortunately in GW2, culling also cuts out player text as well which makes communication in large groups infuriating.
    Ianpact likes this.
  5. Mayjinx

    Mayjinx Cupcake

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    Add freaking mounts..with active powers like speed boost fuel consumption and rocket launchers :D
  6. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Every MMO ever lays off people after launch. You simply don't need as many people once a game is out.


    Guild wars server felt empty when i came back 6 months after launch, tor just did something about it. Of course they will need to consolidate going from 1.7mil subs to 500k. Doesn't mean that the game died.

    Third, I still haven't seen a source for that "made back their money in the first three months" claim, which is very hard to believe.

    Its all over the web if you do a little math.


    http://www.gamespot.com/news/star-wars-the-old-republic-cost-200-million-to-develop-6348959
    http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31584/star-wars-the-old-republic/

    200mil price tag and 2.5mil box sales. They made most of their money back before charging a single sub fee


    First of all they didn't have quests, its pretty easy to make a big world when you don't put much effort in the presentation. Second of all, rift took about as long to get from 1-50 as GW did 1-80, tor i would actualy say took longer and had way more content. No one complains about tors leveling game, its the endgame where it fell down.

    And no they had one dungeon made for level 80's. Everything else was a low level dungeon you could scale yourself for. And even then, you in no way can count each path as its own dungeon. If you did then a raid like hammerknell from rift should count as 4 and a raid in wow with an LFR/normal/heroic and 4 wings should count as 12.

    In fact if you count an average GW2 dungeon path as a dungeon then rift launched with 10 normal modes + 10 experts at about x2 each + 6 raid rifts + 1 raid at about x2 for a grand total of 38. Within the next year they launched a 3 wing dungeon on normal and expert and master modes for another 9, 2 smaller master modes for 4, 9 wings worth of 20 man raids, 6 wings worth of 10mans as well as 2 more raid rifts for a total of 30 guild wars size dungeon paths. Tell me again why GW2 had more content then any other mmo.

    You called it feature complete, no modding tools and no LFG is not feature complete for an mmo these days no matter how you justify it.
  7. FairyTailisBack

    FairyTailisBack Cupcake-About-Town

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    You are right, and wrong.
    All MMOs do indeed do large layoffs when the game is done.
    However, when a game fails to maintain subs they do another massive layoff after they make the transition into F2P.

    Irony, you say math and then fail at multiplication. :)
    2.6m * $60 = 156m

    That is only $156 million max. A far cry from 200m.
    Also, in actuality the last 600k likely didn't pay anything for the game as they joined after it went F2P.

    Furthermore, 200 million is the very bottom of the predicted cost for SWTOR.
    Forbes predicts 200-300m plus another 100m in advertising.
    I have seen other estimates as high as 500m.
    These are all predictions though. :)
    No one knows what Tor actually cost but EA, and they aren't likely to tell us.:)

    Finally, you can't even say EA is turning a profit as things stand.
    The F2P turnover could very well be a means to try to recover some of their loses.
  8. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Except GW2, which has the same 300 people that it launched with, broken up into more than four distinct content teams and pumping out new content. If they can afford that, then they seem to be doing fairly well for themselves, at least relative to TOR.

    I still don't know what you're talking about when you say GW2 servers are empty. I'm still consistently hitting overflows and queues. I think maybe it's an illusion because the servers seemed so very packed at launch, which was because EVERY player was in one of the starting zones, and then most of them were in the teen zones, and everyone was basically leveling together, but now they are mostly peak level and have settled out to the ten or so zones that cater to higher level players. If you're in any starter zone during their world events, or Orr, or LA, or Frostgorge, or Fields of Devastation, you'll probably find plenty of people, but if you're in one of the other zones, you probably won't except for the odd player on the way up. They do need to encourage players to enter those other zones more, and they've done that a bit by urging people towards certain jump puzzles, or with their upcoming Champion improvements.

    Server consolidation wouldn't really have done much about that, all it would do is cause all the currently populated areas to spill into overflow servers. "megaservers" like DCUO oved to could work though.

    You do realize that the developers don't get the bulk of that money, right? I think they get only around $15 per box (the rest goes into the distro chain), which would put them at around $37m, and that's before taxes. Then factoring in that they had to keep giving out free months to keep people playing, and that they had to keep working on the game to keep people around, they might have gone into the black by now, but it's far from guaranteed. GW2, on the other hand, has sold over 3m copies (and that was by January, they've hinted that they're at or over 4m by now), with a much lower development cost, so they're doing just fine.

    Of course they had quests. They had dozens of quests per zone. They have players doing the same tasks as in any other MMO, they just did it without yellow punctuation marks. Instead of having to run up to an NPC, click accept, then run out, kill 10 mobs, then run back and retrieve a reward, you just run into the area, a message shows that there is a reward for killing ten mobs, you kill them, you get the reward automatically. The content is the same, it's just a different presentation. The human starter area alone, for example, had around fifty different quests to do, adding up all Renown quests, dynamic events, and combat skillpoints, all of which would have been well punctuated in that other game.

    The NPCs have the same amount of dialog that they would in any other game, if not more, and the story mode offered the same number of cutscenes as TOR's main stories, more, really, though a bit less spoken dialog if you count all the subquests from TOR.

    Taking longer to reach cap doesn't mean more content. It does take less time to cap out than pretty much any MMO out there, but there's plenty left undone. My first level 80 was done with well less than 60% world completion, and it took months after to just achieve that. and that doesn't even account for all the JPs and dynamic events out there, many of which I missed on my first pass through. The amount of content is the total amount, not the amount you're forced to get through on the way to cap. They could easily have given out 1/4 the XP per source in GW2 and it would have forced you to get world completion and then some, but they didn't, and I'm glad for that.

    The exploration mode dungeons are all scaled for level 80s. You can run some of them at lower levels, but in most cases you'd be holding your team back. The point is, they are meant to be run by level 80s, they reward appropriately to level 80s, there's no valid reason why level 80s should complain about doing them.

    I will do so if they were completely separate paths with different bosses and challenges. Each path through the dungeons is a whole different experience, it just uses portions of the same terrain as the setting for them. They are completely different dungeons that use the same "tileset" in their construction.

    Did the harder difficulty modes have completely different content, or did they just increase the stats and mechanics of the same old mobs?

    It does if you look at an MMO as feature complete without those elements.
  9. lacrimstein

    lacrimstein Cupcake

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    That is a very, very misleading (and most likely misleading on purpose) thing for you to say. No. GW2 does not have 32 dungeons. It has 8 dungeons with 4 paths each. It is also important to note that those are the only 8 dungeons in the game. There is only ONE level 80 dungeon. Others are accessible at lower levels.

    Actually in the latest video Colin said that they're still over 3 million copies sold. Sounds like the game hasn't been selling too well after the honeymoon was over.

    Except TOR actually had animated cutscenes. Your claim that two characters that are standing against a static background and are looping through a default speech animation, is somehow comparable to that is hilarious.
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  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think that is a very, very misleading thing to say, as most level 80 players do dungeons other than Arrah, and even by the loosest definitions, Crucible of Eternity and Honor of the Waves explorables are all level 80+ minimum (even though their story modes are rated at lower levels), as are the seven (soon to be ten) Fractals. I do consider the paths separate dungeons, because while they take place in the same space, the actual content of them is completely different. Now, if a dungeon is 90% the same stuff with an A boss and a B boss at the end, or the same beginning and end with one slightly different event in the middle, then I don't consider that to be a distinct dungeon (for example Molten Forge's alternating end boss), but if most, if not all of the actual encounters one has in the dungeon are completely different, then yes, I consider it to be a different dungeon experience, even if it's set within the same map.

    And I still argue that the various paths and even story mode dungeons ARE level 80 content, even if you can do them at lower levels, because you can do them at level 80, they are tuned for level 80 players in level 80 gear, and they reward level 80 loot, so they are just as much a part of the level cap experience as any level cap dungeon in any other game, and thousands of level 80 players play them every night. ANet chose to make a game in which content scales fluidly,so that it remains viable and rewarding at all levels. Has they not chosen to do this, their design theories would likely have changed considerably, and all exploration paths would likely be classified as level 80-only content, rather than being locked at level 65 or so and be trivial for level 80s.

    And btw, if we ARE going to count "hard mode" variations as distinct dungeons (which I don't), remember that the Fractals contain 80 different difficulty levels, broken up into 16 different tiers, so that would represent between 112 and 560 dungeons. Let's not go down that silly rabbit hole.

    First I'll remind you that 3m copies is still more than TOR ever sold over nearly twice as long a period, and it was a far more ambitious project. Second, I'll point out that in his most recent post on the topic, he said that it sold well over 3m copies, and when asked another developer recently said:
    So that hints that they are very close to what they would consider a "respectable" number to put out there, which I doubt is a fraction of a million at this point, so at least 4m, and possible even 5m in the near future, reading between the lines. It's not confirmation, but it certainly is implication.

    Actually, watch those TOR cutscenes. The vast majority of them are just the characters moving through canned emotes and control sequences, I don't believe that any of them are hand animated to do things that players would be unable to act out machinima style. The primary difference between TOR cutscenes and GW2 ones is that the TOR ones had a cinematic floating camera, while the GW2 ones were fixed to a profile. GW2 did have a handful of fully mobile cutscenes in the original Personal Story, and the new content has a lot more of them, but most of the action is left up to the players, not to a cutscene bot.

    Personally if I want to watch a cartoon, I'll watch a cartoon. When it comes to cutscenes, I care more that they convey an interesting story, to give purpose to my gameplay, than that they are well framed little cartoons. To that purpose I think the GW2 personal stories get the job done just fine. I certainly would say TOR's cinematics are better, just not that they made TOR a better game overall for having them.
  11. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I think we can all agree that the best lesson learned from Gw2 is to not argue with Ohoni, merely ignore him.
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  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yeah, you'll always lose so why bother? Hard mode content is hard.
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  13. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Nope, more like this:
    [​IMG]
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  14. Ikai

    Ikai New Cupcake

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    i aprove of this.
    Now, can we all do this and let the guy live in his bubble? After 13 pages of his gibberish... pls?

    im itching to reply his insanities, but.... must... resist... greater good.
  15. lusciifi

    lusciifi Cupcake-About-Town

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    If you really think GW2 had more content then any mmo you either havn't played another mmo or GW2 just happened to produce more content that YOU personally like (which is fine, stay with GW then). Anybody who actually enjoys challenge had nothing to do in GW2 which is fine as well seeing as wildstar is happy to fill that gap. At this point we are just going around in circles. Its like argueing to someone about politics, there's a 99% chance that neither of us are going to change our opinions so whats the point.
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  16. Castia

    Castia New Cupcake

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    I enjoyed the levelling content in Guild Wars 2 much more than any other MMO I've played, I'd be happy if they can replicate that (in terms of fun). Everything else GW2 lacks (mainly end game content) looks to be in for Wildstar so hopefully it won't need to learn much from Anet.
  17. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've played over a dozen MMOs since AC, and my view that GW2 had more pure content than any other at launch is just an objective analysis of the situation. Others have grown more content over the years since their launch, but they did not have so much at launch. A few other games may have had a larger footprint than GW2 did, but mostly of empty space, while GW2's maps are jam packed with content, with new things to do roughly within eyeshot of each other. I know that some people happened to miss a lot of the event content and proclaimed "there is no content here!," but just because an event didn't proc as you passed by doesn't mean that it was not there.

    That's a subjective argument though. I never claimed that GW2 had "more content that you must enjoy," I just said that it had more content. Whether you enjoy it or not is up to you, but whether it exists or not is just a fact. I don't at all fault you for not personally enjoy the type of content GW2 includes, but plenty do.
  18. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is hilarious. Now that I have spent some time looking over this thread, it appears like the guy just likes to see himself type up responses (to nearly everything)! If he actually wanted to have discourse, he'd keep the person's name in the quote, so they could adequately respond.

    Edit: And to the trinity removal and DPS chaos spam... My main in GW2 was a Boon build Guardian. I'd have to say that class/build combo gives off a tank feel that anyone playing the game can easily see and compare to actual DPS classes. Yes, the outright removal of the trinity does change things up though.
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  19. Xevius

    Xevius Cupcake

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    This thread is full of valid, constructive discussions, so I approve of it.

    After 15+ years of mainstream internet access, you'd think people would learn how to not be trolled by now.

    It's called ignoring and responding to only rational responses.

    People are still feeding the trolls. *sigh*
  20. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    I'm just glad that WildStar is not aimed at people who are currently happy playing other MMO's and so hopefully those people will stay in their MMO's and not infest WildStar.
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