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What do you you NOT want to see implemented?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Brotoi, Sep 3, 2011.

  1. Dansa

    Dansa New Cupcake

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    Why no subscriptions? Because there is no need for it .... peopple really need to get over the fact that every f2p game is bad, pay to way ... etc.

    Watch this video it really explains why subscriptions is no longer needed for MMOs

  2. Dragor

    Dragor Cupcake

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    I consider GW 2 to be B2P (Buy 2 Play) I´m totally ok with this^^

    I just dont like F2P games with Pay 2 Win cash shops.
  3. Dyraele

    Dyraele "That" Cupcake

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    Well, his opinion may or may not be true. Thing is, it is his opinion. Obviously it is yours as well. A company is going to do what it feels is going to make them the most money. Right now, P2P has the potential to make the most money as they have a steady stream of known income and know how many employees to keep around, etc. I fail to see, even with this video, how B2P allows forecasting for a company to know what it will be making. If everyone that was going to play bought the game up front and never sold another game box, how do you evaluate the income potential for the game? Even if you sell some every month, it is still hard to forecast. Also, it is harder to forecast server expenses when you have no steady income coming in, even if you bought them outright instead of leasing.

    Personally I do not agree with his reasoning, but not on all points. There is an advantage to B2P and that is the potential of getting more people to try it since they have no more expense after that.
  4. Nonsensicles

    Nonsensicles Cupcake-About-Town

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    False. There is no evidence for this one way or the other. In fact, the most profitable model, based on the only anecdotal evidence we have, is that the Freemium model (limited free gameplay with cash shop and subscription options to expand the content) is more profitable than pure subscription models. (See DDO and LotRO.)

    Don't forget, Free encourages people to try the game in the first place, and to keep it on their hard drive even if they're not interested in it right now. A mandatory subscription is always a barrier to play that must be overcome before you pick a game back up.

    I assume you're basing this purely on the fact that WoW requires a sub. Don't. WoW is an anomaly, and it may indeed be true that a sub is best when you have that sort of player base and started when subscription was the only model. The only future MMO which has the extreme, pervasive media presence to get extreme numbers of people in this increasingly competitive market to try it despite the sub hurdle is SW:TOR. Everyone else should at least have some free or one-time-purchase version (beyond a short trial) to entice people on the fence about the game.
  5. Dyraele

    Dyraele "That" Cupcake

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    That is why I said potential, I didn't say it was a fact hands down. WoW may be an anomaly, but there is the potential to do as well as they did. Not saying anyone can, just that it is possible. No B2P or F2P model has made as much as WoW from what I have seen. If another game can duplicate that then they will make more then other models, in my opinion. In the end, what model Carbine picks is up to them and what they believe will make them the most profit.
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  6. ImmortalExile

    ImmortalExile Cupcake-About-Town

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    Aye. Just as Dyraele has said- whatever model Carbine decides to go for is entirely up to them.
    I may be wrong, but I'll assume that everyone here right now, would still pay the sub fee.
    Let's just wait and see what happens.
  7. Brotoi

    Brotoi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I don't understand why people object to paying a monthly subscription. The game company has fixed costs that must be met monthly and long term costs that are generally met quarterly. Allowance must also be made for rising costs (prices ALWAYS rise over time) and funds must be set aside for future expansion and/or diversification.

    An online game company is still a company. It has a product and that product has a variety of costs attached to it, some short-term, some long-term, and some incidental. The Guild Wars model works because Guild Wars has a minimal bandwidth/server hardware footprint with enormous amounts of database activity taking place inside the client and then swapped in bulk at zone changes. Personally, I am not at all fond of the Guild Wars game system.

    City of Heroes is right now shifting from a subscription to a hybrid F2P with ingame store model and premium subscriptions. They are using a "premium" member subscription service which offers expanded content and access in exchange for monthly or annual subscription fees in order to insure they can meet their fixed costs.

    There is no single business model that can be applied to every game. The cost structure for maintaining and expanding each game is a direct result of the game engine's hardware and bandwidth requirements on top of the costs for moderators and additional content developers. I would not want to see the market devolve into nothing but Facebook-style Flash games with massive add-on costs and restricted daily play.

    Yes, Guild Wars has an innovative game engine and marketing plan, but that does not mean it is suitable for every single game in existence. We don't need the world of MMOs to devolve into nothing but clones of a single game design model. Not only would it be terribly boring, it stinks of Marxist utopian thinking.
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  8. ImmortalExile

    ImmortalExile Cupcake-About-Town

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    You mean.... World of Farmville doesn't sound like fun?
    How about... Angry Birds Online? No? Okay, I got it, I got it... Cityville... of Heroes!

    Yeah, I'd much rather have WildStar. And, truthfully, I'd rather pay monthly to enjoy content that I know will be updated continually.
    I understand not everyone likes subs, and that's fine. Just don't sub.
    Personally, I'm a bit irritated at all the posts I see, especially at mmorpg.com, that are nothing but folks whining about a subscription.

    Anyways, not trying to derail t he post, and I'm certainly not trying to start a flaming debate. We all have our opinions and our preferences. I agree a Freemium model works in some cases, but remember that almost all of the Freemium game snow started as a subscription based game. They went Freemium in order to save their title.
  9. Khalm

    Khalm New Cupcake

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    If the game is good, I want the option to pay a monthly sub for all the content. Don't care if they offer a bare bones for free model.
  10. Nonsensicles

    Nonsensicles Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'll likely sub if it's an option. I just don't believe it's smart for it to be the only option.
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  11. Jim Oberly

    Jim Oberly New Cupcake

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    Games are just like any other product -- just because someone enjoys making them doesn't mean they aren't there to turn a profit! The people putting countless hours into the project need to put food on their table, too.

    I prefer the regular monhtly subscription. It keeps the playing field level and still generates income to keep the game in the black.

    But, some games feature subscription fee and also offer a cash transaction shop -- where the items you're able to purchase have no impact on actual gameplay. I don't have any problem with this set up either.
  12. WarpCode

    WarpCode New Cupcake

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    I would like a world where we dont have to wear pants.

    As far as the subject of subscriptions go, I prefer games that have subscription fees because I know most of the time when you have a sub based game you have developers there to push out new content and fix existing content on a fairly regular basis. With a lot of free to play mmo's it takes forever for content to be added, bugs to be fixed or issues to be resolved.
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  13. Autumnal

    Autumnal Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind a guy with no pants, lol.:oops:

    In all seriousness, though, I've held off posting in this thread, due to the relatively sensitive nature that it has taken. "Subs" vs. "F2P" is like arguing philosophy, with each side bringing valid points to the table. No matter which side you choose, you're gonna be threatening someone else's Golden Calf. It is a subject I've touched upon long ago, and even earlier than that. So, this is a rebuttal to nobody's post in this thread, only my own long-developed views on the matter.

    My only observation, and admittedly it may be skewed, is the apparent growth of this idea that "Gaming should be free", which is imo, an abomination of "Information should be free". Gaming is Entertainment. It is not a basic tennent of Human Rights. Entertainment is an Industry, it is a business. Would you expect to go to the movie theater, and walk right in to watch a movie? No. You have to contribute *some* level of reimbursement. Games, are exactly like movies. They have production costs, and require paid staff. We all know that if a Game "runs in the red", it is not long for this world.

    In a Subscription game, everybody "pays their dues", up front, before even getting in. Everybody pulls their own weight. In a F2P, it's more of a "Promisary note" that 'yeah, I'll buy something, eventually....maybe'. Whether a game is Sub or F2P, it *requires* some fraction of the game populace to be chipping in, and I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen thread posts elsewhere proclaiming "I refuse pay for gaming". Not that they *can't*, but that they *won't*. I'm inclined to believe "you should get what you paid for". Nothing is ever free.Would it be great if everything were free? Maybe. But some things are inherently more valuable than others, so there will always be an incurred cost in anything. I get by paycheck-to-paycheck, but still believe that I should contribute to be part of something.

    A lot of people point to the fact that F2P can make more money than subs, and I believe that's true. Not that it's necessarily better, but , imo, those same people who *would* have subbed are now carrying the extra load of those people who won't/can't contribute. With a subscription, there's no imperative to give more, with a F2P it's up to the individual to determine their level of support. With a Sub, the idea that "I've payed my share" is easily justified.
    Take these very forums, as an example. We get to play around in here, and toss ideas around for "free". Ask Celsus how "free" WildStar Central is. We get to participate "free", because Celsus has already paid the bill for us. (And thank you again, Celsus!). Since we do not pay in money, we "pay" in participation, which is a really sweet deal, (for us).

    Do I believe that people who contribute should have better things than those who don't? "Yup." Every advantage, by it's very nature, is unfair. Whoever has the best hand/eye co-ordination has an advantage. Whoever has the best CPU, best graphics card, best ISP already has an advantage. Whoever has enough free time to grind 10 hours a day in game has an advantage. Whoever can pay has an advantage. There is no true equity in gaming. It's time to stop singling out one particular advantage as "the" defining issue, and look at it as only part of a bigger picture.

    So, in the end, I hope I haven't poked anyone in the eye, it's not my intention. This is just my view on the whole Price Model issue. Either way, WildStar can count on my financial support for the duration of my stay on Nexus.
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  14. Brotoi

    Brotoi Cupcake-About-Town

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    Truer words were never spoken!

    And I agree, thank-you Celsus for providing this beautiful forum for us all to hang out in. Get ahold of CafePress (http://www.cafepress.com/) and get some swag printed up with your fancy WildStar Central "The best place to be outside of Nexus" logo on 'em so we can throw some support your way! (Er...might want to check with Carbine Studios first, eh? I'm fairly certain they'll agree.)
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  15. Punx

    Punx Cupcake

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    Do not want "Arena" type pvp model if any
  16. Khalm

    Khalm New Cupcake

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    Nice point Autumnal, I had never thought of it in those terms. The whole f2p vs sub models are still kinda tricky. Pro's and con's to both, and the pro's for each kinda attack the pro's for the other.

    For example, pro to sub model is everyone pays the same fair share, nobody is being subsidized for their gaming.
    But with f2p the people that do pay get more content, and there is a bigger pool of players playing because it is free.

    Just a tricky thing to ponder all the way around. I like the simplicity of a sub based system for my personal pleasure, so as long as that is available to me I will be ok. But I better get more content for my sub then the free guys.
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  17. BaseFX

    BaseFX New Cupcake

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    So, what would you think about not buying the box and paying a subscription fee? I think the main complaint with paying a sub is that you have to pay for the expansions as well, if the game charges for them. What about being able to download the game for free, but having to pay a subscription fee to play? In my opinion the subscription fee should be all inclusive, and a box price unnecessary. Same for the box price. Console games have made a ton of money without a subscription fee, and they made enough money off the box to come out with new content, charging for expansions, and maintain their servers. Different platform I know, but still it has worked really well for them. I don't mind paying, but a probable $75 dollar investment to start plus more compounded monthly on that...that hurts. Another note, who says the subscription fee has to be an exorbitant amount? Maybe not charge around 5 dollars a month, in addition to the box price?

    The movie analogy was brought up. Yes you pay for the movie every time you watch it while it is in theaters, because that is what the theater charges to lease the move more or less. They pay for the film to show it and can charge whatever they want. When buy it, from the company, you don't have to pay to watch it on your television monthly or every time you watch it. Just throwing that out there.

    I have played a lot of games. Some sub, some F2P, some a mix between the 2, and some B2P. I prefer the B2P. You pay for what content you want to have access too, and that goes along with should people that pay more have access to more and better things.

    I have had this happen too me. I payed a sub for the 6 months, because well I was rather sure I'd have plenty of time to play. Well it didn't work out like that and I only was able to play for the 3 months regularly, if at all. So I was out half the price. It's not just about cost, it's also about time management. F2P and B2P allow you more freedom to play whenever you want without being hurt for it. Life happens, and life is greater than a game.

    End the end it is Carbine's choice, as others have said, but I've gotten to the point where $240 for the first year and $180 for each year after that is way too much. I know the company is in the business of making money and I want them to do well, but I can't give them what I cannot afford to give them. I say afford, not because I don't have it, but because there are other things that come up in life that are more important. I'm not retired, I haven't had a chance to settle, I'm still trying to make my place in the world. I would like to relax and enjoy some gaming with a great game, but I don't want to be driven to the poor house to do so.

    -EDIT : Now if the sub was 5 bucks that's the equivalent to buying one game a year. I could see my self doing that no problem, but paying an amount equal to 3 games a year for one game...I dunno about that. I would definitely, however, give them the price of a game every year to play.
  18. SiegaPlays

    SiegaPlays "That" Cupcake

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    I am guessing the people, who are the most against dungeon finders, play from a timezone, where finding people is never a problem.

    I play off hours, which means dungeon finder is a blessing to queue up to while doing something else in game. I like to enjoy my game time, and to sit in a chat channel for a couple of hours and spam "LF2M then ready to go", only to loose one and then another group member because it takes too long -- that is not joyful.
    With dungeon finder a player can get more essence out of her time hunting new sights, rather than persistently spamming chats for no meaningful result, not to mention, the group can be just as bad or good as the one you get from a dungeon finder. I rarely get bad groups in a dungeon finder. Undergeared groups, sure, inexperienced groups, yes, but rarely bad groups (asshattery groups), at my timezone people are usually just overly happy at getting a group at all. But my glass going in is usually halfful.

    Please do not ruin the game experience by pretty much baring groups from the LFG-inept of us by whining murder over dungeon finders -- after all, I am not inconsiderate enough to spamreport LFG-spammers.

    BTW, I do understand a wish to limit cross server dungeon finding during peak hours. Offtime hours however... I'd much prefer to get a group rather than stick to apartheid and my high horse.

    If you for some reason do not like dungeon finder, then spam the chats for a group. Handpick your group, if that is how you like it best. Some people are good at it, others are not.
    Having tried dungeon finder and actually getting groups within half an hour during offtime I do not want to go back to that medieval age way of doing it again, where half the time there is no group happening - not just to carter to the people, who has a magic touch of fixing a group up from nothing or who have a half done group with guildies already and thus thinks dungeon finders are useless to everyone.

    That is actually what I hope to not see at all, players who rejects everything they do not want to use themselves.

    Noone forces them to use the features, so why do they try to enforce other people to play exactly like themselves - WildStar is making paths because people do play different, so why want to play it, if you do not accept it as a base truth, people are not all the same, some are good at one thing, others are good at something else?

    MMO means massive multiplayer, there are bound to be features that is one players bread and another players dislike.

    Learn to accept that some features are massively liked by some people, even if they seem worthless. Because those extra features may offer something that keeps more people playing. All you have to do is not use them if you do not like them.

    Please, go pick on the real problems instead, like gold farmers, gold spammers and too easilly made guilds spamming just about anybody to join them.

    Gearscore, huh. Not really interested in that, it brought endless troubles from people abusing on WoW. Gear score in itself was not the evil, it was people abusing it. Kind of like every tool, come to think of it - it is not the tool, but the wielder.

    But I would like to see atlasloot enhanced feature with wishlists and a damage/healing/absorp/interrupt/whateverelse meter with no ingame report feature (personal use to measure improvements and compare to similar geared people) -- assuming WildStar like most other games is about improving oneself over time :p

    I write too much, I am sure some hates me for saying that dungeon finder actually improves the game experience for some of us :-/
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  19. Zrillix

    Zrillix New Cupcake

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    Straying from the payment model arguement a bit.

    What I am hoping that Wildstar avoids is the wave of games allowing characters to be everything and anything. Don't feel like tanking? Re-spec instantly and be a healer! It takes away all individuality from the characters themselves. I loved the concept of the path system and the fact that it will leave something to be desired in a character other than your own. Group with a settler to experience new things your soldier cannot, don't just expect to have one character and do everything, it may as well be a single player if that is the case.
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  20. Melanie Dawn McGreevey

    Melanie Dawn McGreevey New Cupcake

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    Ya, i like the "undead" from Allods VERY much! Very Necron influenced, but still an awesome idea.

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