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Why are the Exiles Considered the "Good" team, again?

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by MrJayBob, Jul 15, 2013.

?

So, Are the Exiles Good, or do they just want War?

  1. Good

    40.7%
  2. Rebels

    59.3%
  1. MrJayBob

    MrJayBob New Cupcake

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    Not even going to dispute the Arboria Event, Because no matter what the reason, its horrible regardless, and if I came off as "this was clearly the right course of action", then that was bad conveying through text on my part.

    However, with the Granok and the Dominion, we don't know for sure if during that time, the Dominion forced races into the Dominion or not, or even if the Eldan did (except with the Cassians, but like I said, we have to leave a lot of things to speculation at this point), since the Mechari were only used to Observe and Report about other races in the Galaxy before serving the Dominion. What we do know for a Fact, is the Granok shot the messenger, Which Incited a War with the Dominion.

    But overall, I agree with you in the fact that I just don't see that "Gray Area" either....which is probably for the best because then it causes more faction pride

    Edit: Don't Worry Scruffy, it came out fine and clear. much better than me anyways, I have Terrible Punctuation, and English is the only Language I speak lol....
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  2. Warslyfe

    Warslyfe Cupcake

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    Meh, the Aurin had it coming...

    Maybe next time don't aid known enemies of a powerful intergalactic empire ok?
  3. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Cutting Supply Lines is a time honored military tradition. Especially when dealing with small guerrilla forces like the Exiles. In a time of war the claiming of Arborea and the strip-mining of it's resources was the right thing to do.

    Even if it is morally reprehensible on an interpersonal level.

    -Rachel-
  4. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    Let's not also forget that the Dominion is an Empire, but there's a lot of things in an empire too. Who is to say that some corporations (like Protostar!) aren't above a few bribes to government officials in exchange for certain resource rights to a planet? The Dominion may have wanted to cut supply lines. Then a corporation said "Great idea! But you know, if you declared the aurins outlaws, we could take over planetary managed and ensure more supplies for the great Dominion! While we make a tidy profit on the side."

    I guess I'm saying that large governments breed corruption. Likewise, branded exile outlaws also tend to come into contact and recruit less than reputable people in order to get things done.
  5. Trinitite

    Trinitite New Cupcake

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    The Dominion are an empire, a massive galactic governing body. As with all nations it is concerned with its own survival and acts only in its own benefit. The Exiles are a displaced people getting in the way of a power that is very much concerned with well, its own survival. A nation cannot necessarily be qualified as 'evil', and the actions of a nation do not represent the individuals within it. When national interests collide the results can certainly be terrible, but that doesn't mean either side is evil.

    Neither side is evil, neither side is good. There will most likely be those of questionable and even strong moral standing within the ranks of both, and ultimately, both sides are concerned with their own survival and future.
  6. ruff_ethereal

    ruff_ethereal Well-Known Cupcake

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    Gibberish? This is very well constructed, quite eloquent, and hits many of the points I was going to say before you went ahead and made them for me. (Thanks.)

    Anyway, my two cents in all this is they're both horrible and good in their own ways; not every Dominion wants to have the entire galaxy under their iron foot, and not every Exile is out to pillage and rob you of everything you have to ensure their own survival. Conversely, there ARE Dommies and Exiles who are just like that.

    As for the Aurin, they are a very friendly race who have just been booted from their homeworld by the Dominion, their precious forests destroyed and presumably hundreds of thousands slaughtered. Even if the Exile humans weren't friendly with them, and didn't take precautions to keep Arboria hidden, they don't really have much choice aside from joining the Exiles.

    They've basically been booted out of the nest before they could fly (i.e. before they could develop spacefaring technology); would they choose to crash and slowly starve to death on the ground or be taken under the wings of those who can teach them how to fly and offer a new--if inferior--nest?
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  7. MrJayBob

    MrJayBob New Cupcake

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    Upon looking into the lore some more, I did not realize there was a timeline (http://wildstar-roleplay.com/forum/m/11410152/viewthread/5918368-timeline-wip) and if it is at all accurate, that would mean the ravaging of Arboria was most likely under the Command of the current Emperor, Myrcalus The Vindicator.

    So if the Current Emperor is willing to go to such extreme lengths, possibly more so than Vorios....that could really put a Damper on things. Especially if it means the Dominion Emperors are just going to be worse than the previous. no matter how much of a tactical advantage it is, Mass-Massacre, is never cool.


    As for the Granok: "They offered the Granok tribal chieftains gifts of knowledge and technology, asking only that they kneel and swear eternal loyalty to the reigning Dominion emperor in return.

    Enraged by the insolence of these mechanical beings, the chieftains and their warlords immediately refused, making it abundantly clear that the ambassadors should leave their planet and never return. When the ambassadors suggested it would be in their best interests to reconsider, the Granok answered by smashing them into smoking piles of scrap." Hinting at Force Assimilation. guess I'm not as much of a lore Buff as I thought and REALLY need to go through it more..
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  8. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

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    Bear in mind that when fighting a war primarily against guerrilla fighters destroying supply lines is perhaps the best way to defeat your enemy whom is deeply difficult to meet on the field of battle.

    Further, the Aurin knew they were entering into an interstellar war when they chose to aid the Exiles. At that point they declared War on the Dominion, even if they didn't intend to or want the war to sweep across their world.

    -Rachel-
  9. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    We don't know when Vorios was deposed and when Myrcalus took the throne, but we do know that Vorios was guilty of a lot more than bulldozing forests. He's said to have nearly brought the entire empire to ruin.

    I, personally, think the ravaging of Arboria was a perfectly sensible move on the Dominion's part. If it was evil, it was practical evil. The Aurin had a resource-rich homeworld, the Aurin aided sworn enemies of the Dominion, the Dominion retaliated by declaring eminent domain over the Aurin homeworld and taking those resources by force. Viewed logistically, this is a win-win for the Dominion. Two birds with one stone.

    This only looks bad from the "oh, those poor Aurin" angle. I'm not going to try to argue that compassion is a bad thing (this isn't the place for it), but the Aurin are not citizens of the Dominion. They're not under Dominion protection. In fact, they're accomplices of wanted criminals. Furthermore, they don't really offer anything (aside from that afore-mentioned homeworld)that the Dominion would take interest in. The Dominion is an empire that values education, culture, civility, pedigree. The Aurin are a bunch of half-animals who frolic around in trees. They don't even have the brute strength and ferocity that made the Granok and Draken appealing as potential soldiers.

    So, if we look at this from a "by the numbers" standpoint, which is the only standpoint you can look at things from when you're running a large business (to say nothing of a star-spanning empire), the plight of the Aurin isn't really worth noticing. This may all seem very cold and callous, but stop and think about just how many primitive tribal pygmy types -both- factions will be mowing through during their respective Nexus landgrabs. Where, exactly, do we draw the line between acceptable humanoid casualities and unacceptable humanoid casualties? Is it based on how cute they are?

    As for the Granok, I find it funny that people think the Granok hubris is somehow more righteous than the Dominion hubris. That was nothing but a matter of both parties saying "obey us or die", the Granok simply shot (proverbially, they apparently hadn't discovered guns yet)first. Of course, even the Exiles refer to the Granok as having "more boulders than brains", and one has to wonder just how stupid you have to be in order to see a bunch of mysterious robots appear out of the sky, be promised lavish gifts, and then respond with homicide just because they had the audacity to enlist your service.

    Any argument that could be conjured up on the Granok's behalf, about why they were so right to smash those big metal nasties, is nullified by the symbiotic relationship between the Draken and the Dominion. They're allowed to keep their own culture, they're treated with respect, all that's asked of them is to fight in the Dominion's battles. Which they happily do, because they like fighting. The Granok, who have since become -mercenaries-, could have enjoyed a similar relationship.

    There's also the fact that the modern Granok, the ones serving with the Exiles, would still be a bunch of stone-throwing yahoos on a backwater mudball if not exposed to Dominion technology in the first place.
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  10. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    When you think about the Draken....

    The Dominion could have easily enslaved them by force. Instead they acknowledge the draken culture and challenged their leader one on one with the emperor of the Dominion. It was a great political move, it 'conquered' the draken in a way they accepted, and secured their loyalty for generations to come. The draken came out pretty well. Now they can kill and hunt across thousands of planets in the galaxy.
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  11. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

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    The Granok would be bowing their knee, and mountains don't bow for anyone! For GNNOOOXX!!!! :D What if the Granok have huge problems physically bowing, so they're like WTF is going on? :oops:

    Now that that is out of the way, back to a real argument. I find it :D that you used the word "conjured" for a proposed Granok argument, come on! In particular, I'm going to be thrashing the parts I highlighted in red!

    You say they're allowed to keep their culture? "asking only that they kneel and swear eternal loyalty" Eternal loyalty sounds like selling your soul to the :devilish: . Even though I don't know everything about Granok culture, I bet that one screws it over big time!

    The Dominion didn't know how to show respect to the Granok in the first place, hence the phrase"insolence of these mechanical beings". Hubris and insolence are near identical, and one is chosen in favor of the Granok. The Mechari were given a chance to leave, but they once again proved to be rude and, lacking any cultural understanding or awareness, "suggested it would be in their best interests to reconsider," - as if the Mechari's vision dictates the Granok's behavior. What's "best" for them is pretty much being shoved onto them by some foreigners here!

    Nothing is nullified, unless you treat all the races the same, like the Dominion's POV of vermin. The Granok don't have the same values as the Draken, so any comparison is irrelevant :eek:. The Granok were described as "skilled warriors, but not warmongers." Warmongers like fighting. The Draken like fighting. You see where I'm heading...Draken and Granok not very similar.

    And to your last part, the Granok didn't need Dominion tech to smash the hell out of some Mechari. They only needed the tech when "the mighty Dominion Legions were deployed". Got to even the odds somehow.

    Now this POV I offer is largely based on the War of Gnox write up. It seems like an attempt to reflect on how the Granok joined the Exiles by a historian. Now is that historian Granok or an outsider. The writing sounds like an outsider to me, so I'm left thinking how accurate that description really is - if I think too much about it! Well that looks like a good enough conjuration to defeat a few cheeky Dominion followers on my part ;)!

    First, ya right about enslaving them by force. "The empire landed a formidable military force on Mikros in 344 AE, and the Draken hordes amassed for all-out war on the Dominion invaders" The Dominion would have had a situation just like the Granok.

    Now the lore is confusing me, because "Acting upon counsel from the Mechari, the bold Luminai Emperor Azrion issued a challenge to the reigning High Clanlord Zhur: meet him in single combat, with the victor ruling supreme over planet Mikros." Why were the Mechari so foolish with the Granok? Foolish shouldn't even be a term used to describe a Mechari. Maybe the Mechari were better informed on the Draken, or they were extremely poorly informed on the Granok?

    If the timelines are correct, the Draken were conquered before the Granok were encountered. So I can't think of a good reason why the Mechari would have miscalculated their negotiations with the Granok, especially if emotions are ruled out. Just a bunch of arrogant snobs? The Way of Stone too hard for them to comprehend?

    P.S. Op I couldn't vote, the poll displays too narrow a POV for me! If you think I'm all for the Exiles, because of this rather large type up! Well, I just like shoving it to who I can :D
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  12. Jynetik

    Jynetik "That" Cupcake

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    It's a pretty mixed blessing. High Clanlord Zhur pretty much traded the self-determination of his people for a chance to prove how big and strong he was and failed. Yes the Draken have all kind of new opportunities to kill all kinds of new and interesting things but they are pretty much the Dominion's shock troops without the same kinds of benefits that the Cassian's enjoy. The Draken also haven't really progressed as a species or been enlightened by Dominion rule, they basically retain their tribal lifestyles, the Dominion just transports them from planet to planet as needed. You can argue if this is a good or bad thing, it just strikes me as a little off. It doesn't strike me as some kind of benevolent "prime directive" (star trek reference) move on the Dominion's part to not interfere with the development of Draken society because well... they sort of already did that in a major way. Instead I suspect that the Dominion just view the Draken as a tool to be wielded and have little interest in fostering much positive change, or offering new opportunities.

    Presentation basically. The lore for the game is pretty in-depth and paints a wash of grey for both factions showing positives and negatives. However the actual presentation of both factions on a surface level is very black and white. The Dominion are shown to be mustache-twirling Saturday morning cartoon villains out to rule the galaxy while the Exiles are portrayed as scrappy underdog han-solo and luke skywalker good guys fighting against a powerful evil empire.

    Even that analogy works here because the rebel alliance in Star Wars is a terrorist organization that on occasion kills innocent people (in large numbers) in order to strike a blow at the evil Empire.

    This is a fun topic, thanks for starting this discussion OP.
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  13. Domi Dayglow

    Domi Dayglow Super Cupcake

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    It's going to be interesting to see how a culture like the Chua became part of the Dominion. The Mechari, well. It's easy to see they are equal partners with Cassians in the Dominion. Chua though? Who knows yet.

    Though! I could see the Mechari's primary goal as ensuring the stability of the Dominion per the wishes of their Eldan creators. If a particular Cassian started getting a little uppity and threatened that Dominion well....accidents do happen.
  14. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    A lot more information would need to be analyzed on my part, especially as to what happened on Gnox. It's important to separate different philosophies, the validity of each, and the methods used to ensure their persistence. Then we would need to look at the whole picture and tie all of these facets together.
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  15. Sweetloaf

    Sweetloaf Cupcake

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    Funny how the Dominion could have obliterated Gnox from orbit without losing a single life. Seems to me that Carbine has some serious fleshing out to do as far as these major events are concerned. As it stands, the Mechari ambassadors apparently went in half-cocked and insulted a bunch of religious golems who, naturally, were not amused.

    One Thing led to another, and that Thing led to clobberin' time.
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  16. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    As I said, matters of pride. The Granok thought they were above serving the Dominion, the Dominion clearly thought otherwise. Given that the Granok who picked up Dominion weapons to fight back against the invading force were later exiled for the crime of... using technology... it doesn't seem so strange to me that the Mechari (being robots and all)would have a difficult time understanding this religion. If you think about it, since the Dominion offer was one of knowledge and technology, the primitive Granok might have equally been enraged by the gifts as much as the demand of service.

    In any case, you can view it as a Faustian bargain if you like. I see it as more of a fair trade.
  17. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

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    I think the major question here, and one I look forward to seeing some answers to when the game comes out, is whether or not the Draken actually have any desire to move their culture forward at all. I imagine that the Dominion doesn't meddle in Draken affairs because it has no reason to... for the Dominion's purposes, the Draken work just fine as they are. We do know that they're treated decently enough... even with sparse examples, we know that the zone of Deradune was given to the Draken as a gift. If they -are- tools, they're well-regarded ones.

    One of the defining aspects (or at least one of the more consistent ones)we've seen of the Draken in what little lore we've been able to get our hands on so far is that they show absolutely no desire to alter their savage lifestyles. Which is not to say that they can't, or that there are no Draken who do, but... if there are any who want to uplift themselves, I haven't seen or heard of them yet. I think the Draken have to want that kind of change for themselves before it becomes the Dominion's responsibility to provide it to them.
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  18. MrJayBob

    MrJayBob New Cupcake

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    Glad you Enjoy it. I'm just happy it is not all blind faction pride and people are actually posting various opinion and views (for the most part) of each faction, and hopefully this can help people pick their faction if they're Flip Floppers who can't really decide yet....which I'm sadly guilty of....But I can't wait to see even more structured opinions of people on the factions. (Nothing new from me yet, but if my speculation about the background of the 4th exile race is correct, then it could help put the Dominion in an even better light)
  19. Split_Light

    Split_Light Cupcake

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    This thought did occur to me. Any spacefaring race can pretty well defeat any race of primitive spear chuckers 100% of the time without leaving their ships. If they want to truly invade and hold the people that's different, but if all they care about is killing everybody and stealing the resources, that's easy peasy.

    The most horrific act seems to me to be the attack on the Aurins. They were once again a relatively primitive race that probably didn't originally realize the ramifications of their actions when they helped the Exiles. Did the Dominion even try talking to them before they attacked?
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  20. MrJayBob

    MrJayBob New Cupcake

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    as far as we know, No. the Dominion Immediately attacked the Aurins for aiding the Exiles, once they managed to trace the Exiles trail to Arboria

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