1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Why are the Exiles Considered the "Good" team, again?

Discussion in 'WildStar Races' started by MrJayBob, Jul 15, 2013.

?

So, Are the Exiles Good, or do they just want War?

  1. Good

    40.7%
  2. Rebels

    59.3%
  1. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Mars
    This. It's the reason I chose good in the poll because calling the Exiles anarchists is flat wrong.

    I already addressed the genocide comment. Read more carefully before you bring it up again, please.

    Life is life and all is fair game in war. However, that does not mean war is justifiable or right in all cases. It seldom is, because both sides are often embroiled in a conflict over greed and clashing ideologies. I didn't mention noncombatants because it's irrelevant.

    The aurin didn't choose war. They took their chances and made a choice based on generosity at the potential price of their own well being. In the end, the Dominion came after them and the aurin are in the wrong for helping out strangers?

    I guess I'll have to dabble in semantics for this one for a tad bit. Being able to justify something (which people can do for almost every action that they take regardless of what it is) is not the same as making a decision based on ethical or moral grounds. Of course the Dominion can justify their attacks on other nations/races/planets, but all it is is a judgment based on the intentional lack of consideration or contemplation of other perspectives. It is not an ethical judgment precisely for its disregard of other sentient beings.
    ArdentSun and Sweetloaf like this.
  2. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I don't see it as jarring at all. The Granok and Draken were treated a certain way because they were approached not for their minds but for their bodies. They were desired as shock troops, not scientists. The Mordesh and Chua, meanwhile, were both approached for their intellectual capacity. That warrants a different approach.
  3. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    If you're accusing the Dominion of lacking empathy for species they don't have any interest in, I'm perfectly okay with that.
    Xlugon Pyro likes this.
  4. Sweetloaf

    Sweetloaf Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Florida
    I understand the differing approaches for the science vs. soldier races, but when you look at the way they handled the Draken assimilation (with finesse) and the way they handled the Granok diplomacy (with stupidity and implied aggression) it just comes off like the Granok ambassadors got lazy and didn't do their research, which is not in line with the Mechari at all.
  5. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Mars
    It does make the Dominion look like the bad guys in a lot of people's eyes though.
    ArdentSun and Chim like this.
  6. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    43
    You're the one who qualified not wanting to get into an argument about it and then heavily implied it with the "Close Enough" statement. It wasn't close at all.

    Noncombatants are a big part of what makes a War unjust. The treatment of civilians. The Aurin chose to join into the war when they helped the Exiles. Once that is established the Dominion was justified in annexing territory and claiming resources for the war effort. That's how that whole annexing thing works. Y'know?

    If you choose to gamble and lose you don't get to say "But I wasn't gambling". What they did was an act of war. They knew that there was a chance they'd get caught interfering on the side of the Exiles. They rolled the dice and came up as losers. Excusing them from responsibility because they didn't KNOW they'd get embroiled in war is ridiculous.

    Regardless of WHY they helped the Exiles they knew it would lead to war. Then it lead to war. And there we are.


    Justification is a core part of Morality. Is it okay to kill someone? No. That's flatly wrong. Is it okay to kill someone if they're trying to kill you? Yes. It becomes a Justified action. Rather than being wrong or bad it is, instead, Justified. Similarly killing in defense of another is a Justified killing.

    That you don't ACCEPT the Justification is the subjective issue. To you their actions weren't justified. Though I do wonder what you thought of the engagements across the European and African fronts during the two World Wars. At different times the Allied Nations would annex enemy territory or even neutral territory in order to gain an advantage over the Axis nations. Was it justified at that point? If so, why is it not justified here?

    Oh, yeah. People died. But GENOCIDE is a whole other level of people dying. Fighting off Resistance Soldiers is very different from a pogrom of slaughter to eradicate an entire species.


    Ahh right. That one. Yep! In the same manner that the Solus of the Citadel created the Genophage. That one was definitely an unjust act. Unless you count murder of diplomatic officials as an act of war.

    Which basically EVERY society does.

    Maybe on the first points, here, that the Mechari are meant to study the races they communicate. But saying that there was "No Chance" is a big fat load of horse dung. No chance they'd accomplish it within a certain timeline, maybe, but the Dominion is over a thousand years old and destined to be eternal. At SOME point the Granok would be rising up into the stars and if they weren't interested in joining the Dominion that could lead to trouble.

    That they're willing to murder citizens of the Dominion is a whole other issue. Much less Diplomats.

    I wasn't even going to mention it being a threat to other races. Though, again, they murdered the ambassadors. Whether they were enraged or angry or threatened by their presence isn't relevant. Violence was not called for. Nothing in the lore about the Mechari drawing first, just that they pressured the ruler and murder ensued.




    Relative peace except for the Granok members wanting to actively destroy the Dominion and the Aurin Members planning to use the Exiles resources to attack the Dominion world of Arborea...




    Remember: Each Mechari is it's own individual self. They're not a hive mind or drones with the same programming. They're unique and individual examples of a race of sentient, sapient, and intelligent synthetic humanoids. With all the rights and privileges afforded to any person.

    That's why murdering them was a bad idea.

    -Rachel-
  7. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Yeah... it's the Mechari's fault that the Granok are a bunch of illogical fanatics. They're irrationally extremist to the point that they exiled their own people for picking up technologically advanced weapons in defense of their homeworld. That's not your garden variety zealotry, that's downright insane. I don't see how it's the Dominion's fault for not realizing the full extent of their fanaticism when it's so anomalous. The Granok chieftans were actually going to accept their deaths at the hands of the Dominion without a fuss, they're so obsessed with the Way of Stone. They would rather see their entire race exterminated than adapt. -That- is not normal.

    And yes, you -do- have to make an example out of -any- race that smashes your distinguished ambassadors to bits. One of the things people seem to be forgetting about the Dominion, constantly, is that the Dominion has established itself as the largest sovereign power in the known universe. They're trying to create a universal empire. Rule of law is only as meaningful as the will to enforce it, and it would actually be -worse- if a race as primitive as the Granok demonstrated that you could just give the Dominion the finger and not be punished for it.
    Eluldor likes this.
  8. Apostate

    Apostate Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    367
    Trophy Points:
    63
    I'm also okay with that. People have their own perspectives, that's fine. If they want to ignore the fact that no empire in human history ever held "empathy" as its primary guiding principle, and neither does any Fortune 500 company today, then they're welcome to do so.
  9. Rumze

    Rumze "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    564
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Nova scotia, Canada
    This conversation is so one sided that is not fun. There is no give .

    We shall see how they play out when the game launches but like I've said before I tend to be very open minded when it comes to rping . Not a fan of there is only one way of looking at it and if you don't do it our way you are doing it wrong which is what the tone of this thread is.

    I shall restate that I'm fine with this is how I view it but trying to have it become the defacto view overall no matter the side is where I start to frown .
    ArdentSun and Xlugon Pyro like this.
  10. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Mars
    I misused a word and restated my argument for clarification. I'm not still making a fuss over the use of a word I've already dismissed.

    Noncombatant fatalities in war are still irrelevant to the discussion. Killing those with opposing philosophies on life is a last resort, but often war is decided long before other options could've been considered and tried.

    I also already addressed how justification works. Frankly it doesn't look at the whole picture and is an irrelevant basis for argument in this discussion. Of course they're justified, as I said earlier, but all that does is paint them as the dark, evil faction that you supposedly are trying to argue against. Justification has no bearing on right or wrong.

    I see no indication that they were "certain" war would come to them, but rather that it was a risk they could very well face. Unfortunately, their fears became reality, but they didn't let a potential hostility stop them from providing aid to refugees of an aggressor.

    It's ridiculous to make the accusation that the aurin started a war. They didn't. They fought against an invading force that could've very well chosen not to invade Arborea. That decision is solely on the Dominion's shoulders. You can't paint the aurin or the Exiles black because someone else decided to respond with kindness to someone they dislike by lighting up their home planet. You can justify the conflict from both angles, but all that justification usually is is a closed-minded coping mechanism people use to avoid feeling guilt which if you've ever felt is one of the most awful feelings people can experience.

    Refer to my last paragraph. Justification and ethical/moral actions are different. I'm not arguing about whether or not either sides' actions are justifiable. They are. Every viewpoint usually is. If I put enough effort into it, I could make an extremely convincing case for the Holocaust. Right and wrong is not tied to how much you can justify something.
    ArdentSun likes this.
  11. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    43
    To be perfectly honest: I plan to play on both sides of the War. The guild in my Signature? Exiles. I haven't picked up on a Dominion guild, yet.

    Mordesh (Class) as my main Exile. Haven't picked a class, yet.
    Cassian Spellslinger as my main Dominion.

    I like both sides equally well. I'm really just doing my best to dispel the "Dominion are Evil!!!" nonsense that keeps getting thrown around.

    -Rachel-
    Apostate likes this.
  12. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Mars
    It's not so much about perspectives as it is the interaction between different people and societies. Other than that, if you give a small number of people an incredible amount of power over the masses regardless of how they acquired or continue to acquire it, guess what happens. Governments and companies are about as guilty for crimes against humanity as is the average person. To say any group or person is wholly good or evil is a poorly thought out analysis of mankind.
    ArdentSun, Eluldor and Apostate like this.
  13. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Sure.

    There is no point in the Lore where it said the Dominion killed those of opposing philosophy because they hhad an opposing philosophy. And it certainly has no bearing on the war for Arborea.

    No. You didn't. You went over your own definition of Justification. And then cast aside any actual justifications because evil is always evil even when it's good. Self Defense is the perfect example of justifiable homicide. There is no point where Self Defense is not justified.

    You're right. I should've used could rather than would. And you know: It's awesome for them from a moral or at least altruistic standpoint that they helped others. But politically speaking they helped a group of soldiers in wartime and thrust themselves into the middle of the war. They hoped they wouldn't get caught offering aid to soldiers, but they did.

    I never once said they started a war. But they did more than fight off an invading force. They joined the war when they chose to aid the Exiles. That's how it works. When they did that they picked a side, and expecting the opposing side to just go "Oh. Well you were just being nice to our enemies. We'll let it slide" is ridiculous.


    No. You couldn't. The Holocaust is completely unjustifiable. People could use the word wrong and Justify to themselves through delusion that it was justified, but it would remain unjustified.

    Ultimately any justification must stand to external scrutiny. Weighting of the factors and deciding whether an action was right or wrong, just or unjust.

    -Rachel-
  14. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Oregon
    First, the largest problem with the term "genocide", and the inability to act on such cases, is the complete lack of a global mutual definition being confirmed since the term genocide was coined.

    Now plenty of nations have offered aid to refugees without the said nation being swept into war. How is this different here?

    Now, I very much like this POV here haha. With one problem, how illogical or abnormal were the Granok for the Mechari. The Dominion most likely has encountered dozens, if not hundreds of unique races, so surely they have experienced nearly everything there is diplomacy wise. Perhaps most of their encounters are just worthless vermin though, so pathetic, that nobody would even want to play their race as a character! - Side question, what race is going to be your main?
    ArdentSun likes this.
  15. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Refugees? None.
    SOLDIERS? Many.

    The Aurin weren't just helping innocent noncombatants, which would have resulted in a request to extradite them and then negotiations, most likely. They were supplying an active military force during wartime.

    -Rachel-
  16. Eluldor

    Eluldor Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Oregon
    Surely the children were not enlisted into the Exile's army as well? This is an entire nation (maybe not yet) of different peoples, so there are going to be all sorts of non-combatants moving to the planet with them - just like they all did to Nexus.
    ArdentSun likes this.
  17. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Mars
    I meant opposing philosophy in a broad sense. The Dominion believes everyone should contribute to the empire or be destroyed. The aurin care for others regardless of who there or their affiliations unless they stand in strong opposition to their own, namely the Dominion. In this sense, it pertains very explicitly to the conflict on Arborea.

    I did and it's a correct definition.

    The rest of this paragraph reads to me as if you didn't understand what I wrote or are conjuring up points that are irrelevant to the discussion. Self defense is another matter that I don't want to delve into so as to keep the discussion on topic.

    Nothing to argue here, except that the aurin were sovereign before the Dominion found them and had no obligation to follow the laws of a foreign entity. An invading country successfully took over another and dismantled the prior government. At that point, the dynamic between the Dominion and the aurin changed.

    WHEN they joined the Exiles, that is. This was when the Exiles returned to Arborea to save their previous helpers and learned that Arborea at that time couldn't be saved.

    It's only ridiculous because people, especially those heading up a multi-galaxy spanning empire are largely self-centered and corrupt, interested only in self-actualization. Nobody with that kind of power would let a small group of people lend temporary refuge to an enemy get away with said actions. However, the aurin likely wouldn't have even been targeted the way that they were if it weren't for the civil war that sparked the formation of the Exiles.

    Justification is only subjective, even if many people share similar or same beliefs. And yes, I could justify the Holocaust even though I don't agree with it at all; I could certainly present the arguments and bat down counter-arguments. That's the nature of people; they justify everything in order to feel good about themselves, not to do what is actually a good thing to do.
    ArdentSun likes this.
  18. Steampunkette

    Steampunkette Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    43


    And there's nothing in the Lore about the Dominion specifically targeting innocent children of Exiles. They also didn't attack Arborea while the Exiles were there. They landed harvesters, according to the Lore, and only returned fire on the Aurin when they were under attack.

    Uhhmm... Nope. The Dominion believes in Enlightening all species and bringing them up into civilization. They have to do it planet-by-planet, of course, because of the resources required. That's the Dominion's goal. Not "Destroy everyone who doesn't agree with us!" which is just your interpretation of their actions.

    You know, the Dominion is a sovereign entity and has no obligation to follow the laws of the Aurin as they come in and take over the planet.

    It doesn't work that way. They were warned of the consequences of their actions by the people they then helped. Those consequences happened. End of story. If the Aurin were unwilling to get involved in the war they shouldn't have chosen a side.

    Nope. That's not how it works. If you aid a side in a war, providing fuel, ammunition, and food to the soldiers, not to the refugees, you have chosen a side. They may have OFFICIALLY signed on with the Exiles, later, but they joined the War when they supplied one side's enemy.

    All the stuff prior to the meat of your argument is a bunch of ad hominem uselessness meant to demean the Dominion. The actual meat: That they gave refuge to the enemy, is the big delicious portion of it. That's an act of war. You don't think it is, but it is. Regardless of how temporary their support: They gave it. Food, fuel, ammo, whatever they gave to the Soldiery was enough to mark down their side in the big book of War as "Exiles" even if they didn't want it to.


    You're mistaking Justification for Rationalization. These are two separate concepts that are often confused with one another. Justification is a REASON. Rationalization is an EXCUSE.

    -Rachel-
  19. MrJayBob

    MrJayBob New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    3
  20. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Likes Received:
    1,640
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Mars
    It's a summarization of what ultimately happened from an objective viewpoint. I'm well aware of the Dominion's perspective but I'm also aware of what both sides are actually doing in a conflict, I'm just not going to go out and say the obvious, especially when it brings nothing to the discussion.

    No kidding.

    Again, no kidding, but I'm not arguing about whether or not, "it works that way", I'm arguing about who is in the wrong vs. who is in the right. I can't take the argument that the Dominion is right about what they did in reaction to the aurin helping the Exiles seriously because it is an argument based on ignorance and intellectual dishonesty.

    Refer to my prior paragraph.

    I've never said anything of the sort. Read more carefully.

    Also, if your reaction to my arguments is going to be, "Ad hominem! Ad hominem!" instead of countering my point or just letting it stand as a disagreement between the two of us, why are you even bothering to have this discussion? Step up and have an intelligent discussion or do me and those of us who want to preserve the quality of the discussion a favor and politely step out of the discussion. It's getting tiresome to see you resort to such antics.

    Semantics again. You know what I mean and that's all that matters.
    Skippy and ArdentSun like this.

Share This Page