1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Why Wildstar should not cater to the Casual Gamers?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Savina, Aug 31, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I don't think you should be able to convert Solo gear into Raid gear or vice-versa, you should have to earn each (although storing extra sets and swapping between them should be convenient and effortless).

    The way I see it, the base stats of each should be completely identical, for the same tier of gear. The distinction should be that Raid bosses should be highly resistant to normal damage, but weak against a special damage type, and they should deal a unique damage type that largely bypasses normal armor. This would make them very difficult to fight using traditional armor and weapons. Raid armor would of course reduce the special damage type, and raid weapons would convert a portion of your damage into the appropriate type. The higher the tier, the more protection/conversion occurs (and of course the more the next level content would demand).

    This would mean that the very best raid gear would be equal to, but not any stronger than, gear available through solo play, and it would definitely be superior while inside any raids. I don't think it's strictly necessary that solo gear be better than raid gear under any circumstances, so long as it's at least equal.
  2. elnerdino

    elnerdino New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Germany
    I wonder why everyone insists, that Raid-gear has to be the best gear. If it's superior in one aspect of the game, it should also be inferior in another. If there is rock-hard solocontent and you beat it, you should get the best possible reward for that aspect of the game. And if you beat the hardest Raid-boss you get the best Raid-Gear.

    With changing the additional stats through attunements (again those stats should be scaled down), there would be a way to get in to that other aspect of the game, without starting from scratch.
    For example at some point a WorldPvE player decides to start Raiding and he wants to go for Tier3 Raid-gear. How ever, being a soloer he already owns Tier3 Solo-Gear. So why not let him get an attunement to get the Tier2 Raid-gear while wearing his Tier3 solo and then go for Tier3 Raid-gear. Would you instead force him to get Tier0.5 Raid, Tier1 Raid, Tier2 Raid and only then give him access to Tier3-Dungeons? Even though he managed to do all that other (also rockhard stuff - we are not talking solo-lvling phase here) all on his own?
    And if so, why shouldn't Raiders be forced to start from scratch too, when they want to cross game-aspects? Ultimately the haven't done a single solo-quest (in elder game), why should THEY be able to slay that Tier3 solo-boss wearing a Tier2 Raid-set?
  3. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Colorado
    You and me both:).

    Maybe a system where a piece of armor / weapon can be "retuned" for a different purpose. Lets say it has the same base stats but the secondary stats are based on slots and mods. You could then make the system reward players for their play-style accordingly. The best for whatever purpose could then be achieved through an individuals play style. Best raiding stuff from raiding and so on. You could have different skins for the armor / weapons as well. That way you could retain the individual achievement of acquiring it.


    Raiding and solo play are very different beasts. I am not talking about skill but, group coordination and knowledge of a encounter. It remains to be seen if WildStar will be conducive to pugging. Remember also there is nothing like lFR in WildStar. LFG is reserved for the 5 man content and maybe a few other things. My impression ( I may be wrong ) is that raiding in WildStar is going to be pretty rough for an unpracticed non-cohesive group.

    I know it's going to seem like a double standard due to my last response but, I like this idea. It's just another layer of content to enjoy.
    elnerdino likes this.
  4. elnerdino

    elnerdino New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Germany
    I guess everyone here does :D

    I generally agree with you here. I think, I made my concept of switching between playstyles a bit clearer in my previous post (the reply to Ohoni), compared to my original post.
    We should consider, that as the game progresses and you get higher Tier Dungeons it might get to a point where it gets more and more unlikely to get a proper 40man group for lower Tier dungeons, which then would make it hard to ever meet the requirements to get into high-tier Raids. With that in mind I wonder how Raids will keep their ranks filled. Of course they could drag some fresh meat through the low-Tier dungeons to make them fulfill the requirements gear-wise. But would that prepare them for the encounter? I doubt it, because they could barely get a feeling for the groupplay with all those overgeared veterans at his side. On the other hand, you as a raider might meet that high skilled tank in a 5man dungeon (while helping your friend - who started playing later and wants to catch up - in between raids). And not just is he a skilled player he also is wearing that awesome solo-gear, that was just released with the latest TierX update (that is almost as good as the TierX-gear you and your raid are going for at the moment!). Wouldn't you want to at least give that a guy a chance to prove him self worthy as your new raidmember - without forcing him to first run the low-tier Raids several times? I for my part, would rather try to convince my Raidleader to run that TierX-1 dungeon again a few times (say it's for recruitment purposes) - and mention one of our healers still needs that <REDACTED> set-headgear anyways. Invite the awesome Tank as guest-raider and see if he can keep up in 40man groupplay while at the same time getting him the armor he needs as your new tank for that all new Raid-instance. :up:

    This might be a one-sided view, as I have never been much of Raider (I think I mentioned that somewhere) and one reason for that was not starting with Raids right from the beginning. Ultimately that means you never get to that content, because no one is running those old Raid-content anymore.

    Personal note: Since the awesome Tank also is such a nice guy to help fellow spacetravelers through those lower Tier dungeons (just as you are). That Tank might be played by me. And you would definitively want me in your Team :whistling:


    //EDIT\\
    I totally forgot to reply to your other statement...
    I am not downright against an approach like that, but I love to collect stuff especially gear-sets (thats by far the best). And I also like the idea of getting stuff already directed to what my playstyle is at the moment but be able to finetune the stats (rather then the other way around).
    The Problem I see with getting the secondary stats through slots and mods is, you can get the right stats without ever clearing a Raid-dungeon, but with bare base-stats wouldn't be able to attend the Raid. What are the options then? Again it results in running all (or at least most) of the old dungeons again to farm your mods Tier after Tier until you are suited for the Raid you originally intended to play, or buy the mods you need in th AH (if they aren't BoP) - which requires absolutely no skill but you would be considered suitable for the task.


    PS: I hope my writing makes any sense anymore... I think I should get some sleep sometime soon
  5. Thalendor

    Thalendor New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Hyperbole is a tool for communication. I wanted to see what your response would be when presented with the idea of everyone getting the same reward, reduced to the absurd.

    I don't actually have anything in principle against an easy mode for people who just want to experience the story (conversely, I don't have anything in principle against gating content according to skill level or other factors, either). I didn't begrudge anyone the chance to, say, see all of ICC and defeat the Lich King when they added LFR in WoW. I was actually the exception rather than the rule in my guild in that regard.

    This, specifically, is what I was looking for. Did we have a difference in kind or a difference in degree? Clearly it's the latter. You're willing to subject players to at least a minimum challenge requiring at least a minimal amount of skill to achieve a particular reward. How is that so different, then, from requiring an average amount of skill to get an even better reward (and not just in quantity) and also a high amount of skill to get the best reward? Certainly, there is the matter of degree, but fundamentally it's the same principle.

    And I support better (in quality) loot for more difficult content. Do note, by difficult content I am not specifically referring to raids, though definitely harder raids should produce better gear than easier raids, just as (in my opinion) tougher dungeon content and tougher solo content should produce better gear than easier dungeon and solo content.

    Granted, one point of a game (especially one you're paying to participate in) should certainly be to have fun. While, granted, there's several definitions for "game" in English, here's one from dictionary.com: "a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators." So, I don't think it should be surprising, then, that a game would also supply some challenges involving skill that some people will be able to master and others won't. Certain, it's not a requirement to be called a game -- some people play poker, others just hit the slots -- but some games are meant to require skill, to have some people play it better than other people, and perhaps to be rewarded accordingly.

    Since it's that time of year, I'll go with this one. If I want to gather some friends, coworkers, and other acquaintances up to play a game of football at local park, I'm entitled to that. I can experience playing the game at some level. However, unless I'm really, really good (and I assure you I would be horrible at it) I would not be entitled to the "content" of playing in the Superbowl or at the professional level, period. Of course, I don't find playing football fun, so I don't do it (I just spectate); maybe, assuming Wildstar goes with a reward system like most other MMOs, that game won't be for you.

    That said, if you do play and we somehow end up on the same server and in the same group, I do hope that we find each other to be pleasant company and that we both get the reward we're looking to achieve. I found your response to be spirited and civil and I respect that far more than any difference of opinion about loot in an MMO.
    Milamilou, Chrilin, Wretched and 2 others like this.
  6. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Colorado
    Speaking from a raiders point of view I can say the problem you talked about in your previous post is a real one. It needs a solution. I will point you to WoW though on how not to do it.

    Blizz was trying to make it so the newer players could get caught up (a laudable goal). Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working. Yes, the newer players are getting gear that is close enough in IL to run the new content. The flip side is that LFR is so dumbed down that the players that are participating are not learning any real skill based play or coordination. I'm not being elitist I swear but, it really is faceroll compared to normal (not to mention hard mode) 10 man or 25 man content.

    Basically (PvE wise) it's creating two classes of players, the LFR crowd and the regular raiders. Not a big deal in of itself. The catch though is as a raiding guild it becomes harder to find A: people willing to make the effort (which is considerable) for another 10 points in IL and B: People that truly do wish to, get lost in the crowd of all of the peeps wearing the exact same gear.

    My current group has been running together since BC. People come people go... Folks take breaks. We do take in new people and we train them up too. Very rarely are super experienced raiders looking for a new home. It's not enough though. There are way to many players and not nearly enough guilds to take the ones that want to learn to raid in to balance out.

    Personal note: I would be happy to have anyone in my raiding group that is willing to learn their class and role and put the time in that is required to make sure they are as good as they can be. One caveat... They can't be mean spirited but, I understand everyone has a bad day once and awhile.

    Index: IL stands for Item Level
    Dirty Outlaw and Wretched like this.
  7. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Elder Game Itemization Goals
    Page 8 reply

    Specifically of note:
    About the 3 way gear split? Not that I'm aware of. There's bits and pieces about the general setup of gear (chips and the like), but nothing regarding the split.

    Except, they aren't. Well, I mean gear-wise. I actually did post about that in Gortok's thread. The long story short, just about stat that can be put on raid gear, a soloer can find a use for. The full details are from my post here, but the main thing I'm thinking of is this:

  8. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Colorado

    I agree gear wise... Raiding and soloing are not very different, other than maybe stat priorities.

    ^^ This exact thought is brought up in another one of my posts.
  9. Wretched

    Wretched Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    13

    This right here is what I'm experiencing right now in WoW. Our realm has gotten smaller and smaller over the last few expacs, and right now it's really difficult to find replacements when people leave. We have people that /want/ to come into ToT, but it feels like they want to be carried more than actually learn. I understand that of course they wont have the gear, but that's just a small part of it. We had one guy come in who didnt have any gems or enchants and didnt know what reforging was, yet he kept talking like he was this pro raider.

    LFR isnt raiding, it requires no effort, no skill, and hell if you die they just give you a stacking buff each time till you do kill it. I love to raid, my guild wants to go 25 man in SoO, but we'll be bringing in like 7+ new people and my god it scares me.I love helping people that want to learn, I get on the backs of any other rogue in my guild to help them improve, but some people just don't want to. They see raiding and the gear in it as this thing that they 'deserve' but don't want to earn it.

    Raiding is a team activity, you have 9/24/39 other people relying on you, expecting you to put in the time and effort that they are. To not do so is disrespectful and wasting other people time.
    Dirty Outlaw and Chrilin like this.
  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    It could be. I really don't mind either way, so long as it's not superior.

    Yeah, probably. Even if solo stuff is hard, each type of play takes a different sort of skill, there's no denying that playing your role in a raid is different than playing solo, even if it may not be harder. I think it's worth having players learn the skills of playing through the raid tiers to reach the highest one, although having T3 solo gear and being good enough to have earned it should give you an advantage at raiding, such that you might be able to skip straight into T1 or even T2 raids without being a complete waste of space, you just wouldn't be quite as effortless at it as someone with a full set of T2 raid gear.

    Also, once you have your full sets of both, it'd be easy to swap between them on the fly, so you wouldn't have to go through some hassle "retuning" your gear to be appropriate to the content you want to do.

    Maybe they couldn't. I don't think armor restrictions would be the best way to block content in solo, it should be more story-based, so a raider should have to work his way through the solo campaign from T1 through t0 T3 before being able to do that content.

    Because my way would only require more work, yours would require more skill, and some people have a limit to the amount of skill they're capable of. I don't see that as a fair reason to limit the potential rewards. It's like, say in the real world, you want to get a fancy car. Let's say you have the skills that you can work as a doctor. Well you can earn enough money in a few months to afford that fancy car. Now let's say instead that you only have the skills to work as a fry cook. It would take you years to earn enough for a fancy car, but you could do it, if you worked hard enough and long enough. The scenario you seem to favor, doctors would get paid in "doctor bucks" and fry cooks would get paid in "cook bucks," and if the fancy car could only be bought in doctor bucks, then no matter how many cook bucks one accumulated, he could never afford it.

    I don't see the benefit to that.

    And you don't consider it a fair reward to merely receive more chips, rather than better chips? A great poker player might play with $1000 chips instead of the $1 chips a lame player might use, but you can add those $1 chips to add up to a $1000.

    Yeah, blah blah blah, don't care.

    I'm sorry, you can argue that some things in life are exclusionary and elitist, but I just don't see that as an affirmative defense for making more things in life exclusionary and elitist than absolutely have to be. Games do not have to be.
  11. elnerdino

    elnerdino New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Germany
    I have absolutely no clue about raiding in WoW (only played it for a few month), but I see your point. The solution to people not getting in to raids is simple to see but very hard to obtain. A "newby"-friendly community and by newby I mean actual new players (either new to the game or new to a certain aspect of the game) - not that guy who play for years and still doesn't know how to dodge a telegraph.

    Let's take me for an example.
    I'll most likely play small-Group content at first - you know messing around in Game with some RL-friends, exploring new worlds, getting used to all those new mechanics, overall just having fun with a new game and find out if it can keep up it's promises and is worth spending so much time on it - but at some point I'd love to get into Raiding (I usually liked that mass-group stuff, if I got the opportunity to attend). That might take month for me, finding the right race/class/path combo (or combos) I want to "spend the rest of my life with" :D. So what happens when I did finally settle for a character, made it to lvl-cap and played lots of story content and 5man-dungeons with my friends? We want to start raiding (together if possible)... are there still groups playing the low Tier content? Yes? Fine, count me in and I work my way up. But what if not? Well s**t... we need another way to get into the new content. We might get lucky and find a Raidgroup that either is recruiting massively and there for might be forced to revisit the low-tier content anyways (I'm not sure how often that might happen) or impress some people so much, they decide to rerun the content for the sake of finally getting some not so "dumbed down LFRs" (even though there is no LFR in Wildstar).
    That being said, I doubt the community would do that. So there has to be some other way, which one though? I'm just glad I don't have to make that decision.
  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    43
    This is why cross-server teaming is a must, so that you can form groups of players that are bigger than what a single server could sustain. Of course, if you have cross-server grouping and still can't find enough people to run a raid, then maybe raiding isn't something very many people want to do.
  13. Warruz

    Warruz Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I know this is VERY DELAYED response but i wanted to respond to it .

    There are several meanings to casual

    The two in questions is -
    1-without definite or serious intention; careless or offhand; passing: a casual remark.

    2-irregular; occasional: a casual visitor.

    Your arguing the first and im arguing the second because thats what i see casuals as. I have lots of intention when i do play and i am focused when i play. A good example was as i became much more casual in WoW it just meant i raided less often, did that mean i gave any less effort when i was actually raiding? No.

    Another point i wish to make is that you make it sound like a casual is essentially anyone not doing group content or rather raiding. Raiding /=/ Hardcore, there are tons of people who raid who are not hardcore at all and just come along for the ride. I wouldnt call them casual either because they are on all the time, they are just the type of people who dont look these things up and just show up. By your definition they are hardcore when they are clearly not, they just play alot.

    If you played WoW you would know there are some "Casuals" who are very hardcore about their achievements (see some of the fishing ones) and take them very seriously. Some achievements take a crazy amount of time and effort (Far more then raiding) but because in your definition its not raiding and solo play its "Casual"

    Thats the flaw in using your definition as there are exceptions to the rule hence why its not a good one.

    Once again
    Casual = Time Commitment
    Hardcore= Style of Play
  14. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Colorado
    I play exactly the same way.

    Again the same.

    Usually there is a spearheader... Someone in your small band of friends that is more adventurous or more social than the rest (or maybe just lucky). A guild is looking for a few to bolster their roster the spearheader gets picked. That person proves themselves and usually (not always) gets most of their friends invited. It's a cult of personality I know and, not ideal. It just seems to happen that way a lot.[/quote]


    lol... I'm glad I don't have to make that decision either. With raids the size of WildStar's there will be more churn. It is a lot harder to keep 40 people going (and getting along) than 10 or 20. According to what I have been told in other threads most guilds have a 10 to 20 man back up roster to make it work. You gotta earn your spot but, if the guilds worth a darn after you do it's yours.
  15. Ghillie

    Ghillie New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2013
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3
    That is exactly how I got into raiding years and years ago. I had to do quite a bit of persuading to get my buddies interested in making the leap from our small F&F guild to a much larger raiding guild. Some of them didn't like it and took off after a couple weeks. Some of them still raid with me today.
    Chrilin likes this.
  16. Chrilin

    Chrilin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2012
    Likes Received:
    156
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Colorado

    Yep.... The only twist on that for me is my friends and I finally got organized and started our own guild.:)
    Ghillie likes this.
  17. elnerdino

    elnerdino New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Germany
    If all of the solo-content is for story progression, you are right. I didn't think that through in that regard. How ever the way I see solo content (from what information I was able to get without playing to much of the game), the main-story quests are just a small subset in solo/small-group content and then there is that big bunch of, lets call it sideqeusts, that gives you more of gear progression housingitems and stuff (the realy good gear) that are hard to do (they have to if you get that awesome gear). But maybe that's just what I wish for and it works totally different in the end.

    So in the end what I want to see is:
    - every aspect of the game gives the best rewards for future encounters in the same aspect
    - a way to cross over to another aspect by either
    - letting the player cross with the gear he already owns but set him back like 1-2 Tiers. I'm not sure about the balancing here, since there is no information on usable information on gear (we wouldn't have that discussion then, would we?).
    OR
    - implementing a tutoring mode for getting into Raids (probably not in the beginning, since there should be enough people running the content anyway) and a way for faster progression in solo/small-group for raiders (better drop-rates maybe). Which would set you back to zero, when swapping playstyles, but at the same time gives you a boost in progression/time ratio.

    After that it doesn't matte anymore, when you once caught up everything is fine :)

    I'm curious how carbine will tackle the task. Hopefully the devs are still listening and we get some insight on that in the near future - DevSpeak about equip would be great :notworthy:
  18. Kayelia

    Kayelia Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 20, 2013
    Likes Received:
    18
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Huh? He did mention this in the thread I linked. Boils down to "cross over should be viable, but not optimal." I didn't mention it because I thought you read far enough into the thread. :oops: Admittedly, that post isn't as strong as the first one in that thread.
    Carebear Commander likes this.
  19. Bnol

    Bnol Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Likes Received:
    228
    Trophy Points:
    43
    The innate skill requirement is low for an MMORPG (especially when compared to other genres). Your dps rotation, the fight mechanics, and ideal gear/spec are learned/perfected over time and all of these things can be accelerated with theorycrafting and strategy guides. Certainly the best players adapt and learn the quickest and there are exceptions to the rule with bad players playing a ton and not improving and good players who rarely play, but for the most part success comes down to time spent. You should be incentivized to put in the time to improve and defeat challenges rather than just grind what is naturally easy for you, because it makes you spend time to down the content and then have a sense of accomplishment for doing so.
  20. klondike

    klondike New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Today's hardcore raiders are tomorrows casual players. Mix it up!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page