1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Will monsters dodge?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by nomotog, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    157
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Simple question will monster dodge are telegraphs like we will dodge theirs. It wouldn't be all enemies, just a small set of agile enemies. What would people think of that? My thought is that it might help bridge the gap between PvE and PvP. If you get practice killing agile mobs, your going to have a easier time just slipping into PvP.
  2. haggeragge90

    haggeragge90 New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I think that would be too hard to program for to be honest. The idea is cool but i believe that would be way too difficult to do. To program mobs to be able to sence what attack your doing and how to dodge it correctly. Considering AI dont really have eyes like we do who see the red on the ground :p. They have to be programmed to sence the ability thats coming. They would have do a seperate system for dodging alone to even be able to properly pull that off.
  3. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I don't think it's very realistic for NPC's to dodge our telegraphs in the traditional sense. As haggeragge90 mentioned, the programming aspect would be a nightmare (Sensing the telegraph placement, directing which way the mob should move, what the monster should do if they're in the middle of their own ability, etc.) However, there will be NPC's that should test your ability to time abilities right similar to a PvP environment. While these encounters will probably be fairly predictable once you are familiar with them, it should be more helpful than the current model of most MMO's. For example, a monster in Wildstar might burrow underground and require you to react quickly to its own telegraph. This encourages the player to not only dodge the enemy telegraph but to time their own abilities that do the most damage to the monster before it burrows. This video, from 1:37 - 4:12, shows a few of the unique ability sets some of the monsters have. Expect to see a lot more of this game-play in the actual game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DCqgowlTKo
  4. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    157
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I don't think it would be as complex as you think. Enemies have been dodging sense the 8 bit era and W* would actually be easier because your attacks telegraph where your aiming. Even a simple pathfinding code could give enemies a 100 dodge rate. You just set them to move to the closest location not marked by a telegraph. A less reliable and even easier code would have a monster dodging a random direction every time they end up in a telegraph.
    Saza likes this.
  5. JarNod

    JarNod WildStar Haiku Winner 2012 / Lead Guinea Pig

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Likes Received:
    815
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Moscow, ID
    This was mentioned in a LoL forum about Bot AI. The programmer can code the AI to dodge skillshots with 100% success rate, but all that does is require the player to not use Skill shots. AI in PvE needs to be bad enough that the players can successfully kill the boss, but good enough to make it difficult.
    Optimisticnerd and nomotog like this.
  6. Rogosh

    Rogosh Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Flint, MI
    Mobs would just need a random number chance to dodge an attack we initiate.
  7. Saza

    Saza Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I would love to see more mob avoidance in this game. The game has to know what the player character has placed and where just for abilities to work, so it isn't unfeasible that this information could be shared with the mobs being fought and trigger repositioning. It could even be as simple as if they are in a telegraph then move any direction and that would be something. I would prefer wiser movement on some harder mobs myself, but that would take a bit more to make sure they won't move from one AoE into another instead of randomly running from harmful areas. Not impossible by any means though.
  8. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Minnesota
    I guess I'd like to have something clarified. Are we talking about having certain bosses or "elite" mobs having the ability to dodge our telegraphs, or are we talking about normal mobs in the world? From reading the OP, I took it to mean normal, everyday monsters in the game world. I think this is a bad idea. Why? Like JarNod mentions here, it would only encourage players to not use time-based abilities. If I'm a warrior and build all instant abilities for these monsters, the dodging aspect does not affect me much. However, if you're an Esper that might rely more heavily on telegraph-based abilities that can be dodged, you're completely screwed. Why implement a system that directly negates certain classes or build-types?

    As I was trying to reference earlier in this thread, I think a much better option is giving NPC's unique and challenging abilities. Something that requires focus and precision without necessarily hurting a portion of the player base. If they want to try implementing a boss encounter that senses and reacts to player telegraphs, I think that's more appropriate. However, it still does not address how to make sure people without instant-cast abilities would not be at a severe disadvantage.
    JarNod likes this.
  9. Witless

    Witless "That" Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    505
    Trophy Points:
    93
    I hope so. It'll make it more enjoyable. Nothing worse than fighting a Mob that i either hit all the time, or when I miss didn't actually move.
  10. nomotog

    nomotog Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    157
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Like I said in the OP it would only be a small set of agile enemies. A wolf might doge, well a elephant wouldn't. People without instant cast would be in the same position they would be in in PvP. They would be able to CC, attack monster unaware, attack a monster well it's stuck in it's own telagraph, coordinate attacks that are imposable to dodge, re aim your telegraph in mid attack. (One of the videos showed a stalker moving well his attack was telegraphing, so I think you will be able to aim untill the attack triggers.)
  11. Shadydemise

    Shadydemise Cupcake

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Alright, I think I'm understanding you now. It's definitely an interesting idea that merits some discussion. However, I disagree that people without instant casts would be in the same position they would be in PvP. The most challenging thing about AI is getting it to act like a human. It is my opinion that high level PvP deals with reading other players as much as it does with knowing what to do in certain situations. Given our current technology, it is not possible to recreate this environment in an NPC character. Being able to read bluffs, body language, emotion, etc. are all a critical component of competitive PvP. We can't create that randomness in an in-game monster.

    That does not mean that it still isn't a viable option. As you referenced, you could use CC and be smart with your abilities. If they toned down the mob response time, this could work quite well. Since you can program a bot to dodge 100% of active skill shots, you'd have to come up with a reasonable system. Otherwise, this would essentially void any "Re-aim your telegraph mid-attack" philosophies.

    Sorry if I'm sounding negative here. I think the idea is great and could be an interesting addition to the game. I am just trying to point out some potential flaws to see if there are ideas on how to get around them.
    nomotog likes this.

Share This Page