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Will progression be reset with every expansion?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Rokiyo, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    One of the things that burned me out with other MMOs was the way that progression was periodically reset, with everyone put back on a level playing field.

    As an example: In their early years, WoW did this once per expansion with level 61 greens often being on or near par with level 60 epics. Eventually they started doing it with the release of every new tier, with their various badge systems.

    For another example: EVE is on the opposite end of that spectrum. At no point has progression ever been wiped or reset. At no point did they go "Well, battleships have been around for a few years, so let's make that the rookie ship that people spawn in".

    I can't help but wonder where Wildstar is going with this... Where on this spectrum they'll aim for. This game inspires and excites me, and I want to fall in love with it... But a small part of me is holding back... Wondering if I'm setting myself up for more situations where something I've spent 3 months earning is suddenly handed out like candy to anyone who can run a couple of 5mans. I think I can live with resets every expansion, but resets at every tier were a bit much.

    What do you guys think? How do you feel about progression resets and welfare epics? What do you think Carbine should do each time a new tier or expansion of comes out?
  2. Purple Rose

    Purple Rose Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think progression in gear is something we cannot evade.

    Each time a new expansion or lets say a new patch comes out with a huge raid it is normal the new gear to be much better than the previous one cause for me there will not be any reason for the to create additional gear.

    But i think the problem is how gear scales.At World of Warcraft gear after each expansion scaled dramatically making even epics from last expansions to be easily replaced by greens.

    I dont mind to change my gear even for greens after a new raiding tier.But sometimes i dont like that with the game moving on some areas to empty and you never look back cause there is no reason to look back.
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  3. Honour

    Honour Cupcake

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    It comes with the territory, I feel. Not adding extra levels to an expansion would mean you're basically just adding more elder game content rather than an actual expansion and player expectation would likely go unfulfilled. Then, if you do have leveling content within an expansion it's only natural to expect the reset that you mention.


    Personally I think a reset per expansion (If Wildstar takes that route) would be fine. Sure, you can say that your previous epics are now worthless in comparison to most gear available in the expansion, but I don't think retention of gear is what most people enjoy. I would guess that the majority of people who earned those epics did it for the fun of beating the content and the feeling of achievement for having earned it, rather than simply having it to show off in.

    In this way a reset could be seen in a more positive light as you're able to regain the feelings of achievement/enjoyment through the additional content.

    (This is all generally referring to a WoW style model.)
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  4. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's likely going to be 'reset' every expansion since Wildstar is a themepark and hence innately closer to WoW then EvE. The devs have said that gear in Wildstar is tuned so that gear inflation wont be as big of an issue (at-least at first) as it its in WoW.

    I'm fine with 'resets' every tier as otherwise there is no one for someone who comes in late or come back after a break to get into raiding without running old content which is a system that works at best poorly. You either get guilds 'left' on a tier constantly losing players to the guild on the next tier (like TBC WoW) or players just get left behind.

    Now in terms of welfare epics not heroics shouldn't make it rain purple (at best only the final boss in an heroic run should drop one piece of purple gear that's worse then raid tier). Instance gear should definitely be blue.
    What I would also do is when a new raid tier is released is up the stats on the blue items in heroic instances to match the entry level of an newly released raid and the level of a newly released heroic instances. Which would allow you to to reach entry level by grind heroics even if you skip a tier.
  5. Kleev

    Kleev Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree that the latest tier(s) of gear should last longer into an expansion's leveling process than they did in WoW, but I definitely think that a progression reset is ultimately needed before hitting the new endgame content. I doubt I'd feel nearly as excited for an expansion without it. EVE is a different style of game and isn't comparable in this way.
  6. crowsong

    crowsong Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is essentially the trademark of theme park mmo's. Its all about progression. If its never reset the theme park dies.
  7. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    One scenario I worry about is when players have to make a meaningful choice between "should I play now, or should I wait until the next tier is released?"

    I think letting any player get into a situation where not playing for a few weeks is a more efficient progression path is a pretty dangerous situation, and I believe the tier resets during WotLK in particular did this quite often.

    The biggest culprit was when the Argent Tourney came out, where Uld25 gear suddenly became available for badges. For the month leading up to the release of the tourney, anyone stepping foot into Uld10 at was just wasting effort: The upcoming reset point was greater than than the tier they were attempting to progress in.
  8. Calahan

    Calahan Cupcake-About-Town

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    There are most additional features in expansions like class revamps, new classes and races and a new level cap. Players want to try out new classes and forced to old raid content to be viable for new quest content isn't really funny most players strive to the new content. Of course you can make new quest content easy but old well equiped players have no challenge or item progress untill the hit the level cap and goes raiding again.

    Bye the way, it wasn't that bad in TBC. If you had really good raid gear you haven't switched it out as fast and mostly because new type of gear was introduced (sockets).

    Full resets between tiers aren't good, because old raid content is dead from one day to another but it's okay, if there are some shortcuts to get outdated gear faster.
  9. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's just all about tuning, for example at the start of a new tier someone in the newly buffed up heroic blues should still be able to be viable in the new raid (as it would the the standard for entry level gear) but comparatively someone in BiS 40s gear from the previous tier should obviously have the advantage in terms or raw numbers (without accounting for skill).
  10. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    Well... I don't think the new raid should automatically become the entry level. I think being good enough to even step foot inside the new raid on day zero should be a badge of honour and selling point for more skillful guilds.

    In WoW, there weren't really any other viable progression paths, so doing this just locked players out of progression... But in W*, we're getting a solo progression, and PVP progression that isn't all "omg arenas"... Making the latest and greatest content slightly less accessible may not be a terrible thing in this game.
  11. F8L Fool

    F8L Fool Cupcake-About-Town

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    I will agree with you that WoW did this far too often during the first expansion and to a lesser extent in the second. Nothing felt quite as disheartening as getting a quest blue on day one that eclipsed the previous BIS by a mile, or a random green that was almost on par. But as time went on they started doing a better job on not wiping the slate completely clean. Although there were exceptions where certain items remained extremely potent for many levels, or even at level cap.

    In recent years if you had very good gear at the end of an expansion, you were left with a major advantage early on in a new expansion. Leveling went much smoother and breaking into the initial dungeons wasn't quite so bad. The reason games started making that change was to actually give players and guilds some incentive to play the game, prior to the expansion launching. I remember how people essentially abandoned Naxx and most of Temple because of that mentality and guess what? They were right in doing so.

    It's doubtful that Wildstar will make such blatant, decade old mistakes when it comes to gear progression and expansions. Most of the development team has worked on the major games with blockbuster expansions. As for the whole badge system, well, that's arguable. I think it's the pinnacle of catering to casuals while others feel it is fair and balanced. I believe that no badge gear should ever be more than 80% as powerful as regular loot drops, but that's just me. Hopefully they don't even have such a system in the game or at least limit it to weak(er) gear, for entry level raiding or dungeons.
  12. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    Keep in mind my example was for between tiers (patches) not between expansions (where new leveling content necessitates questing gear subsuming even BiS 40s gear).

    PvP is being segregated with PvP stats so it's irrelevant to raid progression.
    'Solo progression' is a bit up in the air right now the only thing I've heard about it from devs is essentially gearing that bakes offensive and defensive stats onto gear to make it suboptimal for raiding.
    I mean even in TBC (and certainly more so in Wrath, Cata and MoP) the best guilds could go straight into new raid content with their old tier gear so it's not outside the realms of possiblity.
  13. Narrack

    Narrack Cupcake

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    I don't think progress should be reset every new raid like its become in wow but it does need to be reset every expansion or else it becomes impossible for new players to join or to change class.

    Could you imagine if in TBC the raid gear from NAXX was the only way into karazan? i mean how would they get there? all the old players would no longer be running the old raids so you be stuck with trying to get a small group on newbies into MC,BWL,AQ then NAXX, You'd barley be able to pull a small group together let alone a raid to try and clear it and what about just changing the main class you play? X-pacs are normally the time you do this as you only have to lvl up to max to catch up again.
  14. Psistorm

    Psistorm Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think Wildstar will have a slight advantage here. But before I get into that, let me mention that I don't enjoy this kind of progression reset either, and I'm not even much of a raider. (I did raid in WoW, but the guild wasn't good at keeping their stuff together. Still we got a few bosses down)

    That said, Wildstar is after all going to have progression for all playstyles, meaning solo/small group, pvp and raiding. Since raid gear won't any longer eclipse solo gear massively in strength, you don't have the issue of having to "force" people into choosing quest greens and blues for better stats. Since everyone who put enough time into the game can have a refined gear setup that is stronger compared to what people have that don't optimize and spend less time.

    This would allow for more of an overhang to occur, meaning those who spent a lot of time tweaking will be able to skip a few quest tiers before finding better gear. This would keep the feeling of power around for longer, seeing as while someone with low-tier vanilla armor would immediately find replacements in the new expansion, whilst someone with high-tier might pick up the third or so tier of expansion gear, or maybe even find dungeon replacements.

    So if done right, that would definitely be a bit of a reward for players who spent a lot of time honing their setup.

    Also, Carbine said something about dungeons and raids only giving appropriate rewards and achievements while completed at intended level or mentored down to said level. This does fill me with hope that old content doesn't get nerfed to hell after the expansion packs roll on through, so that dungeon/raid achievements and gear continue to be meaningful accomplishments even for past tiers. Nostalgia raids are fun, but imho I found it more awesome if someone who manages to beat a raid while its current tier should still feel special if people cant complete it 3 expansions later, and can't just nostalgia-zerg through it now that they are outleveling it.
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  15. Tiqua

    Tiqua New Cupcake

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    Depending on class, Naxxramas gear did actually last well into the expansion in Burning Crusade and was not replaced until Level 70 blue/heroic gear. Quite a few people have started raiding with it, also because during release, Karazhan gear was a mess until they increased the ilvl (and made some other changes if I'm not mistaken). Many 25-man kill videos feature a good chunk of people in T3. Also, note that itemisation at level 60 was of, let's call it varying focus and quality. Gear before Naxxramas was often not well itemised, so it would be replaced early. Some slots simply didn't have great gear, particularly for off-specs. Also, enchantments on existing gear gave it an edge, as nobody would place expensive enchantments on leveling gear.

    As a result of T3 lasting too long, Wrath hat larger gear reset, Sunwell gear was starting to get replaced at level ~77. In Cataclysm, it was even earlier, starting at ~82. No idea about Pandaria.

    As for your question: Very few people know if there will be a reset ;).
    But I believe it is necessary because gear drives character progression, especially with the milestone system. Even with the best gear, there should be upgrades while leveling. Not the first quest greens, not the first dungeon blues, but clear sidegrades in dungeons after 1/3 of the expansion sounds about right. Which means that characters in greens and blues will get upgrades with the first queue.

    That's actually brilliant if they can pull it off. Leveling gear being better for leveling than previous gear, without eclipsing it in for other purposes? I don't see how, which is why I really want to see it happen.
  16. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    You raise some very interesting points, and to be honest I never got past BWL in vanilla WoW, so I never ended up seeing that side of the story.

    This quote in particular is something that jumped out at me, because I absolutely agree with it: Gear drives character progression, and progression is generally want players should be wanting. My argument is that this progression should be always meaningful.

    I measure how effectively am I progressing by how quickly I am gearing up compared to my peers: If I'm lagging behind, then I'm doing it wrong and need to adapt. If I'm getting ahead, then I must be doing well.

    Resets shift the baseline: Done WoW-style, they cause the pack to suddenly teleport a fairly large distance along the progression path. Done as often as WoW did it, it leaves me in a situation where every time I create a gap between me and the pack, it suddenly vanishes and I'm back to square one.

    I agree that there needs to be a catch-up mechanism so that the pack doesn't fall so far behind that it loses hope and quits... But there has to be a better method than regularly teleporting everyone in the race to where ever the 3rd place runner happens to be. Keep it up for long enough, and the guy in 4th place is going to realise that he's better off going to the pub for a beer and waiting for the next teleport to happen.
  17. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    As an admittedly silly example of this, I haven't played WoW since cataclysm came out. I missed an entire expansion's worth of raiding and progression... And I haven't been disadvantaged at all by this. If I were to re-activate tomorrow, I could very quickly and easily surpass any level of power I could have gained in Cata by doing the Pandaria quests.

    So then what would have been the point of investing all that time and effort?
  18. Nemeses

    Nemeses Well-Known Cupcake

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    Long as they keep it to once, maybe at a push twice a year that's fine.
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  19. tyranade

    tyranade Cupcake

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    Oh yes, if they can do this I'm in for the long run!
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  20. Steiner

    Steiner New Cupcake

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    Errr, the point is that playing the game should be fun, and fun is it's own reward? Correct me if I am wrong, but games are suppose to be fun to play.

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