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Will progression be reset with every expansion?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Rokiyo, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. Tiqua

    Tiqua New Cupcake

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    "The opposite of well is well intended." (It's a nice saying which doesn't seem to translate well to English.)

    That means character advancement requires gear from the old expansion that i not available any more.
    It's terrible for those who have it, for those who don't, and for the designers who have to balance it.

    Keep the gear in your heart, in your RP wardrobe, in your cotume box, but let go of its physical form.
  2. Apothecary

    Apothecary Cupcake

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    I wasnt saying that i was saying that the gear would be the equivelent of top tier from that expansion but the gear would be unique skinned because it required the original and the new tier gear to make.
  3. Xo1o

    Xo1o Cupcake

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    I just read an interesting article by Ramin Shokrizade on Gamasutra that talks about this problem of "equity", as he calls it. Shokrizade also shares some insights about why game economies succeed and fail (one example is EVE Online). Good read.

    http://gamasutra.com/blogs/RaminShokrizade/20130531/193353/The_Barrier_to_Big.php
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  4. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    That was a fantastic read, and I think he really nails many of the key concerns I had with WoW's expansion model. Every time a new tier or expansion came out, I felt like I had lost a lot of equity. I don't even particularly enjoy EVE's minute-to-minute gameplay, but that retention of equity is ultimately what retains me as a player.

    I especially like his points later on in the comments section about making old content obsolete. I again think back to most of the new tier releases in WotLK, where the release of each new tier almost instantly removed everyone's willingness to run the now obsolete tier.

    Every single piece of content added to the game caused an equally large piece of content to become obsolete. Once again I bring up the Argent Tournament, which rendered an entire raid dungeon obsolete in favour of a single circular room. In these moments, WoW stopped being a "big" game. At any given moment, it was just a very narrow game with extreme amounts of unused fluff.

    The more that I think about it, the more I think that the housing system in Wildstar may be an essential piece of the puzzle here. If they give us unique and useful content for our homes that isn't made obsolete by new expansions, then our efforts in acquiring stuff for our homes won't be devalued.
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  5. ebakrans

    ebakrans Cupcake

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    Yeah that was a good read, and it does make a lot of sense on a lot of issues. I think he is spot on when he says you can't have a system where your new tier obsoletes the old tier. I think one of the reason wow feels that way now is stat bloat on the gear every tier in recent expansions. When the next tier of gear is hundreds of points of dps or spell power or armor better than your current raid tier there is no motivation to go back and run old content.

    On the flip side I don't mind expansions wiping out progression, I often times really enjoy replacing my raid gear with new more powerful items from an expansion just for the sake of getting new and more powerful gear. It also helps new players who want to try the game out or people who return after not playing for a time, it equalizes the playing field for a little while which can be good. What is less fun there is if there are items from the old expansion raid tier that must be used in the new expansion raids, be it unique proc trinkets or special effect boots or something that even though it is from an old expansion you can't play without it.

    Like someone above me said I think a good way for them to keep everyone feeling value in old and new content could be the housing system. Your decorations and crafting tables and what not won't lose value with a new expansion, sure there might be more to add in general but I am hoping there is some persistence with your old gear. Like maybe the buff stones hand out buffs based on your character level so you don't need to buy a new one, or once you buy the crafting station it can be used to craft any tier of gear old or new. That way there is always a feeling of value for at least one aspect of the game.
  6. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    You know... Come to think of it, there's absolutely no reason to have pvp or solo content rendered obsolete by new tiers...

    For solo players, making every tier require all tiers before it ensures that all players get maximum value out of the content. For pvp, the content is generated by other players, so it doesn't really run out or go away.

    I think it's pretty much just large scale raids that suffer from the issue of not having enough people to run a required pre-req raid, meaning you can't get into later stuff.

    What if there were very few welfare epics, and new people wanting to raid were instead expected to mostly gear up via solo content or something? The gear that is going to come from solo play wont be well optimised for raiding, but it'll be better than walking into a top-tier raid with fresh level-cap greens.

    That way the raid content (which will apparently be free of major storylines/etc) can continue to age and grow obsolete as new stuff comes out, without forcing the same endless reset loop on the rest of the game (since the rest of the game really doesn't need it).
  7. Paul_Cousins

    Paul_Cousins Cupcake

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    Gear progression is the nature of the beast for expansions.

    I still hope that Carbine makes it so players can still get the old gear, unlike SWTOR. So that people will have gear sets and weapons that look cool just encase transmog is introduced.

    For example the best looking WoW PVP gear and shields were in WoW Vanilla and Burning Crusade. While the best looking PVE gear and weapons, barring a few exception, was in Burning Crusade and Wrath Of Lich King.

    Transmog allowed for that old gear to still be usable in looks with in current expansion gear.
  8. Alex Moore

    Alex Moore New Cupcake

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    I firmly believe the reset between expansions is an excellent method. I personally found myself quitting WoW around a year into each expansion only to get drawn in to the next one knowing I would be able to play with all my friends and have a fresh start at the raiding experience when the next expansion arrived.

    Although, what blizzard has done recently is a crime. (Something that has been going on since WoTLK and has been getting more and more aggressive every patch). That being the idea that you can just jump into any patch. That there is no more progression in the game at all. The gear from one tier should be vital to getting into the next tier. There shouldn't be new reputations that give you hand outs, quest lines, or 5 mans that give you Tier 3 gear. Nor should the old content be intentionally nerfed to get people from having fun doing it.

    People need to be able to go through the ranks of PvE and have the SAME experience as everyone else who completed those tiers before them.

    Basically, the vanilla/BC model. Even if your guild formed later, or maybe you were just a bit slower, you knew that if you killed Nef in BWL, you knew you killed the same boss as the world first guys. The same accomplishment, and satisfaction, you weren't given a reduced version because the developer thought you were too slow or because you weren't there when it was "hot" content. It didn't matter if someone was killing KT in naxx. You just killed Nef and your guild had to struggle through it just like every guild before you. You got to progress at your own guilds speed and have a fun satisfying adventure knowing that you'd be challenge all the way through. The game is so much bigger with this model. You don't skip content. I laugh every time I heard blizzard talk about making sure everyone "sees the content", but most of the time, it isn't the same content anymore, plus, they usually SKIP content by being shoved into the "hot" content.

    The game was a journey. I hope Wildstar is too.
  9. Agathia

    Agathia Cupcake

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    This! I completely agree with the "We killed Nef! Sure AQ40 is already around but hey, what a victory! AQ40 is simply our next trial!".

    I had the chance to kill Kael Thas before the nerf in BC, it was one of the greatest fight ever in WoW to my taste. 20 minutes of awesomeness (and afking with other rogues and war during one phase :p). Then they nerfed it AND removed the attunement to Hyjal. I perfectly understand that this attunement was a pain in the ass and it would have been far better if people just needed to grab an item available when Kael Thas was dead. People who weren't present for the kill would have been able to attune without any problem... Anyway, after those two nerfs, guilds would not even TRY the fight, one of the most epic fight ever! This was kind of sad really...

    The thing I don't really like about the expansion stuff is that the old content really gets useless and that I won't be able to enjoy it if I didn't had the chance to do it at the time. Doing it when you are overleveled simply isn't the same... But... I don't really see how to make it relevant over time because a lot of people won't do it just for the sake of fun. They are here for the loot... I guess I'll have to let it go :'(
    But I didn't had the chance to kill C'Thun while we were level 60 and I really regret it for a long time :p
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  10. kanochi

    kanochi Cupcake-About-Town

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    I think it's fun when the armor resets, and you are getting new pieces with new designs and every quest gives you something useful to use.

    If all your epic gear was better then you'd have to wait for a while for the quest rewards to even give you anything that you can actually use, which seems kinda bland to me. = P

    Of course after you do have like 3 expansions where your gear instantly becomes useless and you spent all that time raiding it can be a bit annoying, but in the end as long as they have something useful you can do with the raid gear I think it's nice, like maybe make it so the green items you find are better if you have epics or upgrade them or something lol, I dunno. = P Just throwing out random pointless ideas.

    But either way I think it could work out well if it's well done. ^^
  11. Shynx

    Shynx New Cupcake

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    i know dem feelz. but gradually improving rewards for comparatively menial activities (such as 5man dungeon running) is necessary in a system where old content gets canned, because its the only way to enable new gamers to gear up for the current raid content. or so we're told.

    my personal favorite is still burning crusade (pre-sunwell and wellfare epics). if you were a new player, you had to climb up, step by step. you started with normal l60 dungeons, joined a casual guild for the easier heroics, found a new guild that did karazhan, heroic dungeons and maybe even gruul, and so you went on. you had to work through the old content in order to gear up for current content. not only do i find this more rewarding, it also increased the value and longetivity of raid content.

    i am not saying do it exactly like burning crusade, but i advocate for a system where time spent between reaching max lvl and getting ready to raid current content increases with every new tier.

    one way to implement this would be to make old content more easily accessible. old 20mans could be tuned down to become 10mans, 40mans could become 20 mans.
    another way would be to split up old raids into 5mans, in a system where you would end up with t1 dungeons (release dungeons), t2 dungeons (first raid tier), t3 dungeons and so forth. each tier would be more difficult than the previous, but would also offer better rewards.
  12. Miatog

    Miatog Cupcake-About-Town

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    This is not possible is the problem. Blizz has shown the numbers in the past of how in every expansion, raid participation just drops off exponentially over the course of each expansion, even looking at old content being hit. This is in part because it's hard to catch up and the journey is already gone. The only way you could make them have the same experience is if they run with people who have no knowledge of the raid or any gear from past it.

    Without any form of a catch up mechanic, you either have people who fall behind/try to jump in and find they're unable because they won't find a guild that will gear them. Or the other thing that happens is they do find a group that's willing to help them gear up, and that person is the only one with appropriate gear while everyone else knows the fights and is over geared. This vision of having the same experience is not possible, if you don't see it at content the experience is lost.

    Blizz has said that the way they had the catch up was bad in Cata, it's one of their stated great mistakes of Cata. MoP is doing a better job of it, no nerfs till the new tier hits, and LFR has a better drop rate to help with catch up. What does this mean, it means that you're still going through all the content to gear up, but it's not going to be so hard to find a means of gearing up.

    A note, this is mostly an explanation of why Bliz implemented the various catch up mechanics that they did. WotLK was less of this, Cata had other issues, and we can only wait with MoP. If thisin any of this in any form is good for Wildstar, can't say, far too many variables for a game that hasn't come out yet.


    These are both bad...a flat 10% nerf is far better. Trying to tune down a raid from one size to another is hard to do well and really not worth the time. It would take a lot of effort that would be far better spent on other things.
  13. Red_Death01

    Red_Death01 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Uhm.... talking about expansions is WAYYYY tooo far in advance given the fact the actual base game isn't even out... and the only reason progression needs to be 'reset' is to allow those that didn't get all of the gear to progress into the new expansion. While WoW did it fine in BC to WotLK I believe since you didn't INSTANT replace a piece from no matter the tier you had- I think it is inevitable to say... yes- it will... Though again- expansion talk for a game that isn't even out is far too ahead of itself... For all we know Wildstar may implode upon itself by some fatal misfortune and end up in MMO graveyards. I'm really hoping it doesn't though.
  14. Alex Moore

    Alex Moore New Cupcake

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    I'd like to address both of these topics with my own views on the subject. First I'll say, the expansions are the catch up mechanics. That is what this entire topic was about. That those expansions serve as well timed catch up mechanics that for me personally kept me coming back knowing that it was a clean slate.

    The first thing you mentioned, yes... we know that more people did Rag, less did Nef, less still did Cthun and very few ever did KT. But the point is while raid participation [in the "current tiers"] was dropping off with each new tier. The player base, subscriptions and individual adventures each character was having was not. Not everyone rushed off to the new tier, because not everyone was ready day one. Which is fine. The argument I'm making is that if you can raid and enjoy the raiding experience and be challenged, then when you get the kill, you gain that satisfaction that everyone feels. By nerfing old content you actually strip away the opportunity for those people lagging behind to feel that same satisfaction. Regardless where someone is in the progression, they will have successes and failures and stories to tell.

    I hate when people talk about the 1% (or do we say the 5% now?) as if no one else raids or cares about a challenge. The 1% are fighting for world glory, the 5% are fighting for server glory. But from personal experience I know that there is a large percentage of people who still want to fight challenging bosses and accomplish something with their guild. Why do they have to be set along side the 5%? When you make raids open to all 100%, the game suffers for everyone, we know this from experience. Raiding isn't a requirement in MMOs, it is something that a lot of us like to do. It is a single way you can choose to play an MMO.

    When I think of old WoW, I think of the different ways you could play the game. You could make alts and quest all day, alone or with friends. You could PvP religiously in battlegrounds, or take your skills to the open world. You could PvE and accomplish feats of strength with your guilds.

    Most people didn't do everything, especially not seriously. You picked a way to play. You had fun doing it. Those people that never raided could enjoy WoW too because it was a special gaming experience, it was just amazing to exist in that world, when it had mystery and sense of discovery. People who PvP'd at the top didn't care about raids, they were PvP dedicated and proud of it.

    What blizzard is doing now is creating a game where people are borderline forced to taste everything. They don't want people picking a play style, they want everything to be accessible to every player. They want every player to play the game the same way. That isn't what made WoW great. WoW was special because each player would specialize themselves in the game.

    I have friends who started raiding later on at 60 and never cleared BWL, but you better believe they loved every minute of it. They weren't competing for server first, they didn't care what other guilds were doing. They still love talking about killing Onyxia and Rag, because in some sense, in the old WoW, that was an accomplishment. Just saying you raided in vanilla WoW is a badge of honor to many and invokes good memories.

    I'm not looking to be in some world first guild and play 20 hours a day. I just want to opportunity to kill the same boss as the world first guild killed in my guilds own time. I think there are a lot more than 5% of us that feel that way.
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  15. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

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    Ok since we've all got our rose tinted glasses on let's just take a step back to reality and look at the facts for a second (As much as I loved raiding in TBC and vanilla).
    Going for progressive raid system (Requiring you to complete every tier to reach current content) has two unhealthy effects on players and guilds in the raiding environment;
    ~There is not catch up; If you don't get in on the ground floor day one game/expo drops or you have a break for any period of time you are essentially locked out 'current' content forever, sure there might be wonder stories of someone fighting their way up but that just leads to my second point. This dramatically lowers the player pool (even world class players would fall victim to this).
    This system means people who want to raid can't, remember the whole wildstar deal is choose how you play.

    ~Guild tread-milling; This is in my opinion the most toxic thing that happened in TBC. Guilds getting 'stuck' on a tier and every-time they'd get a player (or players) geared up enough to move on one or more would leave or be poached (this was a very common occurrence in TBC it was cited as one of the reasons for the change in paradigm). This has a very negative effect on the server community and can destroy otherwise capable healthy guilds (I've been on both sides of this).
  16. Mierelle

    Mierelle Cupcake-About-Town

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    You do have a great point, but Carbine have said that Raiding will not be for everyone and they might open raid up to more players when newer content is available. I do agree that TBC was a little steep but Vanilla was just a matter of gear and personal experiance. Carbine doesn't have to make a progression blockage but I do hope they have some kind of progression requirement.
  17. Shoogli

    Shoogli Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd like it so it's a little bit of both when a new expansion is out :

    - Raiders that had the absolute best and optimized would have their gear as best for a couple lvls still and would only have to change one sub-piece here or there to fine tune (I mean one mod or amp inside a piece).

    - For casuals it would feel a nice bump in their stats, allowing them to experience the previous content casually.

    Also this is tied to the speed of levelling in the new expansion. If the new expansion is adding like 5 lvls only (seems to be the trend nowadays) then hopefully getting from lvl 50 to 51 isn't just questing for 4 hours right after the expansion launches...
  18. Yinello

    Yinello Cupcake-About-Town

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    The thing that got to me in WoW expansions was the extreme difference in stats with the gear. I can understand that with a new expansion and level cap, you can't use your old raiding gear to raid the new dungeons. But why is it that early greens can replace them as well? It would be better if those who have gotten the high end gear through whatever reason can keep using them longer than knowing they'll lose it all again the moment New Pandaland arrives.
  19. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

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    Some very interesting points, and I am very happy to be learning the other side of the story.

    So it seems that the TBC method causes guild tread-milling at high levels of play, and hampers the progress of late-joiners who wish to begin top-tier raiding. This can destroy otherwise capable healthy competitive raiding guilds.

    The WotLK/Cata method prematurely retires content before the more casual/social groups are done with it, and can cause players who tend to progress at a slower pace to give up entirely. This can destroy otherwise healthy social or casual guilds.

    I'm not sure either solution is a particularly good one, frankly: It sounds like one burns out the hardcore players who can lure to new players into the game, while the other directly disillusions those new players as they enter the game. Either one of these options can cause gradual long-term harm to the size your player base...
  20. Alex Moore

    Alex Moore New Cupcake

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    The catch ups in my opinion are the properly spaced out expansions. Also something I would suggest that WoW has failed to do since vanilla and BC is properly space out their content. Why the heck is dragon soul getting released as the final raid content OVER A YEAR before the next expansion? Tiers should be longer periods of time, giving everyone more time to get through it at their own rate. There doesn't need to be 1 year of raiding action and 1 year of nothing... tiers could easily be released every 6 months. Do people get bored and take breaks in between tiers? Maybe... did people take breaks during WoW? Oh heck yes they did, but people came back for new content (which in WoW was the new expansions).

    Again as I already said. Non-progression format means that players who need to be "caught up" (why someone needs to be caught up is beyond me) but those players SKIP content to get caught up. So the amount of raid content they actually participate in is equal to if they just stayed on their track and went through the ranks.

    You don't see more content getting lifted to the "hot content". You see the same amount or less. "Well, people can go back and pug the old stuff". Yes, because getting in a pug one night and blowing up the old raids definitely does that experience justice...

    The thing is the player pool was never falling with any consistency before WoTLK. So I never understand why people say that players fall off. Yes... less players are on the "hot content" but that doesn't mean less players are doing raids. Even if we saw that less players are doing raids... Who cares! The game is more than raids. There are other things to do in an MMO. Raids are a bonus, an add on, something there for the people who are actually interested in raiding.

    The last few expansions of WoW, blizzard simply hasn't given time for the non-five percent to reach their goals, you get current content nerfs barely 2 months after the release of a raid. My suggestion would be to simply space out the content, give everyone more time. Again, what is the point of shoving out all your content in the first year and have the second year be nothing but grinding the last tier over and over again.
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