1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

Will progression be reset with every expansion?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Rokiyo, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. Impaler

    Impaler Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    USA
    I think there just needs to be enough time between xpacs and Raid Tier's that those who max out the current Tier have enough time to enjoy it and get bored of the gear. Then when the xpac hits they are itching to get upgrades.
  2. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    3
    What do you do when those guys have already been maxed out & bored for the last 3 months, and yet 90% of your playerbase is still working through the current content?
  3. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I'd like to address this section specifically but I'll cover the first and third parts of your post briefly first.
    Blizzard leaving Dragon soul and ICC content up for a year has nothing to do with a flaw in the catch up system and everything to do with blizzard being money grubbers. If you had to do every raid in Wrath to see ICC (no matter how face roll it is) hardly anyone would have seen it because of guild tread-milling (like I mentioned above).
    The last half of your post is making false correlations between sub numbers and raid mechanics, you said it yourself most people don't raid how you set up raiding shouldn't have a huge impact on sub numbers.
    Similarly Blizzard nerfing content with the release of new content and their release cadence has nothing to do with the systems we're discussing and everything to do with blizzard chasing casual dollars.

    Now as a long time hardcore progression raider I can tell you this hard fact of life 'old content is old' it's as true now as it was in TBC no one wants to still be doing TK when you could be running Hyjal. Sure people get their rose tinted glasses on an start needing to kneeling at the alter of nostalgia but it's simply wrong.

    Similarly I've taken breaks before for personal reasons everyone in my guild has, including our GM who's way more hardcore then me he's a GM, RL, MT and he's also a world class healer in a top 20 guild (which is his 'alt). Under the TBC content he would either have to run the 'guild treadmill' or be locked out of content. Keeping your best players out of content because no one is running is bad design.
    BonusStage likes this.
  4. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I think this statement hints at the root cause behind our differing viewpoints.

    I accept that an individual player interested in hardcore progression, who has fallen behind the curve for any reason, is harmed when forced to grind old content in order to get to the 'fun'.

    I also accept that guild treadmilling amongst hardcore progression guilds is a real and serious issue that needs to be addressed.

    I do not accept that a player who cleared two bosses within TK will already consider TK to be old/boring content. Nerfing the difficulty and removing the rewards from TK when 50% of your players have only cleared the first two bosses just saps all motivation for those players to finish that content, long before that content would have become 'old' for those players.

    This issue gets more complicated with the introduction and itemisation of tiered solo storyline content: Every time you release a new chapter, you burn the previous chapter under the assumption that 'no one wants to read old chapters', even if they haven't read any chapters at all yet.

    With progression resets per tier, you're forcing everyone (solo, raider or pvper) straight to the latest chapter of the story because some of your raiders are bored. It's about as close as you can get to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    Mierelle likes this.
  5. Inv1cted

    Inv1cted Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Likes Received:
    153
    Trophy Points:
    43
    These are fair enough points I entirely agree some counters/thoughts though

    ~Gear progression is necessary/inevitable (every patch, every second patch, every expo doesn't matter) I feel that that is enough of a nerf to old cotent there's no need to ever go down the blizzard route of randomly nerfing old raid bosses for no reason (there was a Gruul nerf in one of the latest patch notes wtf?) or that stupid stacking buff thing they do on final tier raids.

    ~There's also the issue of release cadence against difficulty here. If you're releasing new raids every 2 months yes you're going to have the issue of guild who could have done better only getting to 2/10 before a new patch drops which is very much burning old content.
    If you're releasing new content every 4-5 months, well a guild that's 2/10 at month 5 is very likely not going to make it much further up the tree in any case.

    What you could do (if they have like a badge system) is do some retroactive gear scaling type deal where you gear relative to the current patch is scaled to meet the old content; I.e. patch 1.4 20s gear is scaled down to patch 1.2 level 20s levels.
    To encourage guilds to do fun runs to farm up gold/badges in raids rather then just chaining heroics till your eyes fall out (but that would still be an option).
    Or scale the content to you're a tier above where you are relative to the patch (when you enter the 1.2 instance in 1.4 heroic blues are scaled to 20s raid drop level, and 1.4 20s are scaled to 1.2 40s level) This lets everyone see content they (in this case the 2/10) guild other wise wouldn't have seen and gives you a reward (gold, badges or tokens for a few current 20s pieces off the final boss (rings/belts etc), a couple ups on an alt run) without 'forcing' progression raiders to do it and it lets less good guilds 'progress' and have that feeling of achievement and see old content without it being a complete face roll.
  6. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Now there's an idea I could really behind! (If I've understood you correctly)

    Let's say tier 1.4 is released.

    If at this point, tier 1.1 scaled up to be on par with tier 1.2, then the old content is not lost, and players still have a manageable progression path:
    • Tier 1.1 and 1.2 are now the same and new players can run either one freely (yay for variety!)
    • Tier 1.3 stays where it is, for the unwashed masses who are still progressing
    • Tier 1.4 is where the 1-5% move on to
    Then tier 1.5 comes out:
    • Tier 1.1, 1.2 & 1.3 are now the same and new players can run either one freely (yay for variety!)
    • Tier 1.4 stays where it is, for the unwashed masses who are still progressing
    • Tier 1.5 is where the 1-5% move on to
    I think a system like this still allows for some granularity in relative progression, while preventing the scenario where you have to grind a late joiner through 5 tiers of content just so you can resume progressing.
    Paul_Cousins likes this.
  7. Impaler

    Impaler Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    49
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    USA
    Make an alt? Work on Housing or crafting or Warplot? Get some sun? Play another game?
  8. Jojin

    Jojin Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2013
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Jacksonville, Florida

    With the mentioned side kicking type ability the game offers, it won't be as bad. It will give those who have gone through everything and maxed the chance to play with friends and alternates without destroying their experience.

    In fact this ability changes the dynamic of older content being obsolete a little bit as it does allow for returns to older stuff to play with new players.
  9. Cookie

    Cookie New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Why not just have different gear? From GW1 the idea of expansions was new story content, new classes, new skills but there has always been a constant top level of gear. You can start new characters and the story is different so still fun, gear can still be obtained to the high level without having to teleport anyone forward and for old players, there's the opportunity of new gear, raids and content
  10. Crimmen

    Crimmen New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Many Eve players, corps and alliances will disagree with you.

    There have been many, many progression wipes in Eve. In fact. I would go as far to say, that is the nature of Eve.
  11. Rokiyo

    Rokiyo New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I think you and I may be referring to different things here.

    I suspect you might be talking about the way that an individual player can risk big and lose bigger, potentially losing weeks or even months worth of equity through their own mistakes or bad lack. This individual loss of progression is part of Eve's core risk/reward gameplay, where players generally have to risk losing something before they can gain anything of real value.

    What we're talking about here is a massive flip of a reset switch. The Eve equivalent of what these fantasy MMOs do with every expansion would be deleting frigates & destroyers from the game and having cruisers become the smallest size of ship in the game.
  12. Hellspawnx

    Hellspawnx Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    52
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I like progression resets allows me to enjoy the simpler things like leveling and 5man dungeon gearing, then back to the hardcore raiding for another year.
  13. Crimmen

    Crimmen New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2013
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    3
    No. I'm talking about building logistics, progressing towards better jump gates and bringing in supplies. Progressing markets from nothing to a bustling trade center and clearing out enemies and such from your territory.

    Then, the expansion comes in the form of a competitive alliance and wipes out every single thing you have created and resets you back to where you were a while ago.

    It's a massive reset switch.

    and, your frigates and destroyers ARE gone.
  14. Naunet

    Naunet Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2013
    Likes Received:
    339
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Oh PvP can definitely be harmed without gear resets. The power creep gets absolutely out of control extremely easily. Look at TERA and the difference between a Victors ("starter" set) or even a Fraywind-geared individual (t13 enchantable set earned from battleground credits) compared to someone in Visionmaker/Bloodrave (the best PvP gear available in the game). The amount of damage reduction and outgoing damage boosts that player gets in comparison to the lesser geared one is insane. In large part this is because TERA has had pretty much zero gear resets since tier 12, and certainly none since they introduced organized PvP. They keep bringing in new PvP sets, but the only people able to achieve them are the folks who already had the best of the best prior to that (especially true for Bloodrave, as it requires very high arena ratings, which you're not going to get unless you're in at least Visionmaker/Conjunct). The power creeps higher, while the folks just getting into PvP are left further and further behind.

    So yea, power creep and gear resets aren't just a group PvE thing. It's very much necessary in PvP, as well.
  15. Paul_Cousins

    Paul_Cousins Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Interesting post.

    Along that line of thought on gear progression, the reason that the starting green gear in Burning Crusade was better than WoW Vanilla was that Blizzard admitted that they messed up the math on gear stat progression and they were using level Burning Crusade quest gear to reset the stat progression.

    While on the other hand, Burning Crusade level 70 epic gear, such as from the Black Temple or higher BC raid gear could be useful until level 75 WOTLK greens and blues replaced them and gear progression scaled much better between BC and WOTLK.
  16. SteveDiggler24

    SteveDiggler24 Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    77
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Placentia, CA
    Looking back on my experience with World of Warcraft, I was displeased with disenchanting epics from raids I had dedicated weeks towards clearing for greens/blues I had acquired within my first 2 hours of new content.

    It was the work I had put in. It was the point I had reached with my character where it was simple to recognize I was in the top 1% of the server, and Carbine has made statements supporting the "1%" mentality.

    But let's be realistic here. If expansions were released where 99% of the population was expected to reach the point the 1% had before getting into new content, or if old world raid gear was recommended for new content. Players would get stuck finishing old world content to prepare themselves for expansion content. This would lead to population becoming divided, and would inevitably kill the game.

    Resets aren't so bad. Players that don't start the game on day 1 benefit from resets in that they are able to start fresh with the elite player base that they never before had a chance to catch.

    Besides, with the original example of Eve's & No reset vs Wow & Complete reset, can anyone think of a middle ground?
  17. Kynealdyr

    Kynealdyr New Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3


    Well, your EVE reference does not fit into this argument. To put WoW into the same context, players would need to start a new character with all level 61 greens. But that's besides the point.

    So lets say you have a level 60 and there have been 3 tiers of content that release in the raiding scene (I'm only going to talk PVE here) -- New expansion hits, level cap is raised to level 70 and a new set of raids come out at level 70, we'll call that tier 4.

    In this scenario, I think that tier 1 content could be replaced as early as level 62 - 63. Tier 2 content should last until the late 60s, say 68-70. And IMO, tier 3 raiding gear should be equivalent to what you get from the level 70 5 man dungeons. I think that a guild/group of players that had mastered the tier 3 content should have the gear needed to start raiding as soon as they hit 70. But I don't think the tier 1 and 2 players should be penalized.

    Now if you go back to the WoW analogy when BC was released, if you only had quest gear at level 60 and nothing from dungeons or raids, the starting BC content was actually hard in comparison to players that had some dungeon/raid gear from vanilla WoW. And the chest piece my tank had from Zul'Gurub didn't actually get replaced until lvl 68.


    The real argument is this: Do you want players who were unable to participate in tiered raiding in the previous expansion to have a really hard time leveling in the new expansion, or do you want the successful raiders in a new expansion to have an large advantage in the new content?
  18. BonusStage

    BonusStage Well-Known Cupcake

    Joined:
    May 14, 2013
    Likes Received:
    268
    Trophy Points:
    63
    most threads on this forum are about not having mechanics that allow people to skip content.

    This would allow raiders to completely skip expansion content, next you are going to ask for raiders to get automaticly leveled to the new cap since questing will be unecessary grind.

    Also this helps the competitive scene.

    New guilds can participate and compete on the new content, they can be World First, that can not happen if they dont clean the slate, older guilds have a clear advantage.
  19. epiksheep

    epiksheep New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Reroll that seal clubber/pastamancer as a saucerer and make the mighty 'high mein'.
  20. Neurotic Cucpake

    Neurotic Cucpake Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Likes Received:
    87
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I couldn't disagree more vehemently.

    The whole point of an expansion is to expand the game. Unfortunately, when most MMOs -- and WoW is particularly guilty of this -- put out an expansion, they're actually decreasing the size of the game by effectively making all the old content only good for leveling up. The actual end/elder game literally becomes a smaller and smaller part of the game. Take the current expansion as an example; even if you erroneously assume each expansion is equal in size, Mists of Pandaria is only 20% of the game, as opposed to when Burning Crusade came out and was 50% of the game, versus the 100% that so-called "Vanilla" WoW was. That's not expansion...

    It's a real pickle to the developer point of view, too, because in their eyes, they really are adding more content to the game. But from the player point of view, it's just new content that completely eradicates the existence of all the old content. Especially when the leap is as drastic as WoW's, but even small leaps have a similar effect. I mean, other than catching new guildmates up, why even run raids from a previous tier in a given expansion when the new one has even slightly better gear?

    Just because this is the way it's always been done, that doesn't make it the best way to do it. Or even a good way.

    A much better way to handle things is to improve the diversity of the content and the rewards. Let raids and other content expand your character; give you access to new abilities and skills, access to different types of equipment (such as how The Secret World keeps adding new types of weapons), and all that sort of thing.
    Agathia likes this.

Share This Page