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Will Wildstar police its players better than wow?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Xecks, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. Carebear Commander

    Carebear Commander Cupcake-About-Town

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    Thank you so much for posting this! I had this idea in my brain but could not make a post as articulate as yours.
  2. Malorak

    Malorak Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love how stupid yet effective the Tribunal is.

    Effective as in cheap.
    Just make players watch over players to behave instead of having a functioning report system that's being accustomed by programs/people. Costs alot less, now doesn't it?

    Also a normal person watching over every move someone else normal does...Stasi much? German war history? Corruption is also a point.

    I've seen enough cases of the tribunal in which people just say "f'*** it, he will be banned" even though he was just reported 4 times by premade people and thus "it was evident". No reading through chat, nothing.

    I think it is unneccessary and that they should try to keep up with cleansing the game from bad peepz themselves. I'd rather have a police station than StaatsSicherheit, thanks alot.
  3. atom

    atom Cupcake-About-Town

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    Moderation is relative and often overused. If we're drawing parallels to communities, let's take two of the largest forum communities in WoW, since we're drawing comparisons: Elitist Jerks and ArenaJunkies.

    Elitist Jerks Moderation: They didn't care what you posted or to whom, as long as you could articulate yourself and you weren't posting incorrect math/conclusions in regards to the topic at hand.
    Results: Huge informative community. Some of the best theorycrafting and more information about your class than any other location for years. It's fallen off recently and faded into obscurity as the need for theorycrafting has all but vanished.

    ArenaJunkies Moderation: Barely there.
    Result: Huge informative community. There's really no better place to get PvP information, hands down.

    It is clear, then, that less moderation is better in fostering an informative community. To wit, restricting the community can be detrimental overall. There are some situations when it is called for, but the draconic heavy handedness that seems to be advocated would snuff out a community's usefulness. When everyone is glad-handing each other and circle jerking about how nice they are, there's nothing to keep people around or spur them to achieve more.

    The only place that a more restrictive form of moderation is appropriate is the official forums, for obvious reasons.
  4. Infamouz

    Infamouz Well-Known Cupcake

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    I call bull<REDACTED> on the red paragraph. Arena Junkies has really nothing to offer anymore. It used to be fine back in TBC and WotLK but nowadays it's just a site for flaming, calling wintraders and mocking people left and right for no reason and having no moderation might have alot to do with it.

    I do not support the universal censorship of ideas and opinions. I do think that obvious trolls should be dealed with.

    There is a huge difference in "Hitler was a saint" And "Hitler did not do all wrong" or "Hitler created few things that gave Germany great socioeconomical progression". First one being plain trolling latter two leaving space for discussion and debate.
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  5. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    I agree with your post, however I would make one more point. While the latter two have space for discussion and debate, an MMO chat channel typing 1 line at a time is not a meaningful place for those discussions. You won't get useful discussion simply because of the medium, which means the only reason to bring them up in an MMO is for trolling / pointless arguing. You get a bunch of people shouting their own opinions and the "winner" is the one who can type the same thing for the longest.

    There is a right time/place for these types of discussions, saying it doesn't belong in an MMO is not the same as saying it shouldn't be discussed at all. The same way there are many topics which have no place whatsover on this forum.

    TLDR;
    Are controversial topics worth discussing: YES
    Is the right place for a productive discussion an MMO general chat channel: NO
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  6. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    I agree and I HATE when people go off on political and religious rants in video games. Keep that garbage out of chat. In every game I play online, I have to eventually shut off chat completely because of the amount of hot garbage being spewed.
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  7. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    The type and level of moderation changes the community without a doubt.

    You are currently posting in the biggest and most informative WildStar community with a great dev presence. This was created BECAUSE of the moderation, yet in your opinion this very forum would be improved if the mods stopped doing what they are doing and let anything and everything be allowed.

    Less is better so none is obviously best right? All I can say is that I'm glad the moderators of this forum don't believe you.
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  8. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Well-Known Cupcake

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    Moderation is much needed but it can be taken to extremes as countless games and forums have proven.

    The real problem is the over-sensitive people who are offended and cry about everything. If these people didn't exist there wouldn't be the phenomenon known as trolling.
  9. Kallor

    Kallor Cupcake

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    Yup, getting is right isn't an easy task.
  10. Xlugon Pyro

    Xlugon Pyro Super Cupcake

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    This, especially the second paragraph.
  11. ratiller

    ratiller New Cupcake

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    Over moderation ruins the experience though, you say that ignoring people doesn't fix the community so do you really think censuring people who'd prefer to speak their minds is much better? The world has gotten far too inundated with this knee jerk reaction to political correctness, i'm not saying there should be no moderation because there's definitely a time and a place for it but for the most part why don't you let people be people before you jump the gun and start looking for regulations on something that you find offensive?

    I'm sure if there's an overwhelming outpouring of people saying moderation is too lax once the game is going Carbine will take steps accordingly, but asking whether or not they'll live up to your standards seems somewhat prudish and annoying
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  12. HappinessFactory

    HappinessFactory Cupcake

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    I dont know if anyone ever passed by the GW2 forums , but even discussing moderators there is taboo. I've had large amounts of my posts on the pvp forum deleted because saying the moderators are too harsh "isn't constructive". I actually had a whole thread of mine deleted when I claimed that over-moderation sucked the life out of the forums (the idea being the only thing left to do was to complain about balance). I'd like this sort of stuff to stay out of wildstar in general.

    On another note, reading through this thread a few times has got me thinking about the other side of the debate. I can't seem to comprehend how people are effected by
    1. Other player's names (Imdaheals, honestly dude?)
    2. Political viewpoints (I get how it detracts from the Role Playing side of the game, but for the rest of us. Political debates come up every day on facebook and no one gets butt mad about it besides the people debating and nobody has the right to claim victory in these arguments)
    3. Bickering/Flaming (I understand the annoyance this causes when it fills up a chat log, but that annoyance doesn't warrant a GM does it?)

    There are some things I understand
    Provoking(Trolling)
    I can understand why people can want this to go away, but if you've played MMOs for as long as I have you'll know this is not something a GM cant catch. This happens in whispers, in mob stealing, in T-bagging, in most cases this does not happen in general chat. This falls on you to report the harasser.

    You might think that it does happen in general chat, but more often than not it just turns into a flame fest where now both people are guilty.

    Gold Sell Spam
    Supposedly the CREDD system will solve this issue (but i doubt it), and even if it doesn't I'm sure after GW2 NCSoft or Carbine will resolve an effective way to deal with bots before release.

    Conclusion:
    We're not dealing with hate speeches with intent, we're dealing with ill-mannered people. We don't need more moderation; we need smarter moderation, community moderation. A way to draw a majority approved line without falling to the will of people who arn't mature enough to enjoy a well made game regardless of the interaction of other players. We need a community with enough backbone to rely on society law rather than a paid babysitter.
  13. Yakzan

    Yakzan "That" Cupcake

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    I just wanted to comment on the "discussing moderation" bit from my experience of being a moderator here and having been a moderator elsewhere before, as a person who has been a moderator rather than official capacity of "moderator of WSC". The "no discussing moderation" rule is generally there to help prevent threads going entirely off topic or stop threads that serve as a platform for trolls and other ne'er-do-gooders from happening. It basically never, ever, leads to no good. Handling posts like that requires tact that I honestly can't say I have but try anyway, but it's usually in the form of, "sry bro, you should PM us if you really have issues with moderation" and I'd honestly look at the post if it's actually articulated well (I never got one which wasn't someone insulting me or overblowing the whole scenario.)

    That said, I'd say that if your "discussing moderation" bit was only part of a post rather than the entire post, I think outright removing your post or locking a thread is entirely unnecessary, as long as there was something on-topic and worthwhile to go off of, rather than simply a platform to whine about what moderators are doing. Like I mentioned before, handling that issue requires tact because you're, most of the time, doing exactly what the poster is arguing about, so I'd disagree how moderators approach things if their approach is to simply see "Oh, he broke a rule!" and remove the post with extreme prejudice without consideration to the other points in the post. So, discussing moderation on the forum isn't a good idea but, from how you describe it, their methods aren't helping either.

    Believe me, bad moderation does definitely exist and it's something I strive to avoid and encourage any fellow co-mods to avoid as well. We're simply supposed to 'trim the edges', as it were, and help discussion thrive without fear of being insulted at every turn or stop people from breaking down all barriers and keep things calm, or at least that's my view on the position. The very last thing I want to do is promote censorship and would go out of my way to surgically edit posts to remove the particularly nasty bits, if possible, so the core of the poster's point still exists, whether I agree with it or not. Sadly, not every mod (where doesn't matter) agrees with that approach, like your post shows, which disappoints me. Like I've commented before on reports, there are no rules against being stupid, as long as they're not flaming other people or violating rules on content and such.

    Well, I guess I ended up giving some insight not only on that specific topic but the whole moderation topic as a whole. I find that moderation, whether community or 'first-party', is essential, but needs to be treated with care and respect to other posters/players. Ideally, it should never be abused and only to come down on toxic behavior (flaming, inappropriate content, etc), not to push any sort of agenda or purposefully censor people or opinions the moderator doesn't agree with. No moderator or moderation policy/system is perfect but it should bloody well try.

    Hell, I've more than once pushed for more community moderation in games (which is funny because I detest reddit) because I find that volunteer moderators that are members of the community can help 'define' the community and its culture. It can also help give a server its own 'flavor' of community that players may either seek or avoid, which is good imo. It has its pros and cons like any other system but I find its potential for community building makes its pros far outweigh the cons. The potential for abuse does definitely exist which is why it both requires some first-party oversight as well as community input as well.

    Whelp, I hope this was insightful for someone. Just wanted to give in some personal thoughts as someone who's played MMOs for many years now and with experience with the whole moderation thing.
  14. HappinessFactory

    HappinessFactory Cupcake

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    Your post is insightful, a point of view which I guess I've never taken account for. I think if most moderators would be a part of the community like yourself I would have a different stance on the issue. But, I am tired of seeing
    "Hello,
    As this thread is not inviting to a constructive and healthy discussion, it is now closed.
    Thank you for your understanding."
    I don't mean to generalize all moderators to be bad, heck you yourself are a shining example of what a moderator should strive to be. However, I'm not currently wanting to risk over-moderation in game.

    [Edit]
    Even though it seems obvious, I really like this sentence. quoted for more emphasis ^_^
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  15. Arsonist

    Arsonist Cupcake

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    The mods on the gw2 forums were insane with the moderation. Anything negative posted about the game was closed and the person was infracted or banned. Especially at launch. I imagine they banned 20% of the playr base off the forums.
  16. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    I'd cite ToR and D3 as causing this reaction. I don't believe in over-moderation either, but the industry reaction to the forums of these 2 games are 100% warranted and the incredible amount of negative press both games received for those forums specifically, was something that just couldn't be ignored.

    So obviously you have examples of too much moderation and not enough, people continue to harp on "what if" scenarios, and it's just really just about putting the rules on the site and then making sure that you enforce those rules. If the feedback is that one rule is too harsh, or needs to be amended, then you do that, the problems start to occur when the posted rules are ignored and moderators brush it off on a regular basis. There is no difference in-game, chat rules should be enforced, if staff doesn't want to enforce a rule in-game, then take it off the site....simple as that.
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  17. Cynister

    Cynister New Cupcake

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    GM support is needed but I think there is another way to help the Game Managers out to police the community.


    I remember Anarchy Online had a program called ARK (Advisors Of Rubi-Ki), They were for the lack of a better term player GM's. They could not ban people or things of that nature. But they had special powers, so they could do other things like port to your dungeon for example to help with bugs or monitor events unseen (ex. PVP). If they spotted you breaking rules they could issue you a warning or report you to a actual GM.

    There was a selection process if I'm not mistaken, so everyone could not become one. But I think that Wildstar should take a long hard look at adding a program like this into their game. This will allow us to help the GM's out and police our own so to speak.

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