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Will Wildstar Stay p2p? or will it go f2p eventually?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Chaddicus22, Mar 1, 2014.

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  1. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    1. No I don't see that, prove it please. I'm tired of doing one-sided reasoning and meeting only aggressive replies that provides nothing but "I don't know why or how but you're wrong and I'm right and by the way you suck".

    2. I say that because I've been doing research in this area for 10 years and I hold a PhD in it. Definition of "communication" on every dictionary? I'll do better, here's the page of communication models ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_communication ), it is also a widely accepted theory that finds application in both computer science/engineering, namely information theory which gave rise to communication theory in the first place, as well as signal processing, both of which you can look up quickly on wikipedia. Of course, it reaches into psychology, neuroscience, biology in general and even sociology. We do research. We determine what those ladies and gentlemen over at Oxford put on the dictionary many years from now. Dictionary is not going to help your cause much but you're welcome to try. If you want to counter this definition for communication, please point to a source instead of saying "you're wrong" and making snark comment that provides no information other than hostility over and over again. If any of what I'm saying does not make sense, please point out why. And if you have a better explanation that can represent these concepts, please tell me. Simply saying "you're wrong" is sadly, not something I can work with, for that matter I don't think anyone on earth could.

    3. No, did you miss the many places that I kept emphasizing the difference between subjective and objective statements, how it often happens when people (like you) pass off subjective opinions with an illusion of objective statement, and how doing so means that it's not pure communication but have other motives at play? Not saying that you did so intentionally, but people do all kinds of things unintentionally. Bullies don't want others to get hurt as an end to itself, they just want to have fun and hurting others is a mean to that end. Notice how many snarky remarks you had in your posts? It tells me something about you, but it probably isn't something you'd like to have me receive, so sadly that isn't communication, we don't have an agreement. I was saying, stating your observations without attempt to reach any common ground from others means that communication isn't your goal, but you can certainly have goals other than communication. It could be asserting dominance and hence amplifying your own sense of security, it could be attempting to influence others' views through adaptation to ensure your own benefits, etc. It's fine, everyone does it to some degree, whatever happens happens for a reason and it's all good, but GIVEN a criteria, for example "maintaining harmony" or "enable communication", then there is a "better appraoch" and a "worse approach". No, I'm not saying you SHOULD do something, I'm saying you should do something IF you attempt to do A, and you may or may not want to do A. I'm trying to explain the reasons and motivations behind your behaviour, and use the results as critical information to determine what to do with you. In the process, I filtered out the noise in your arguments as best as I could (and there is a LOT of noise, and not in my wordy/lengthy way) as well as the short circuits (contradictions), but that was intended to shock you into re-evaluation and hence sync with me in terms of understanding. In turn, your replies, while very noisy, prompt me to again and again try to explain myself better. I'm sorry but it didn't hold much else. I know you're not reading or getting much of this, this is intended for whoever else is reading. Because unlike what you've been suggesting, I do care about how others receive my information output. I want my intention to get across accurately to the other side, which in this case is everyone who potentially reads it.

    Finally, yeah I said I wouldn't reply back, funny how you noticed this but missed everything else. And I admit --- I meant it when I said it, but I wasn't able to control myself because I saw an opportunity to reach an agreement with you and I jumped at it. See, admitting to a problem isn't hard, and the solution is easy too --- I'll just be more careful before making promises like those ones, knowing my own impulses and weaknesses. Desperate? Oh yes. See that's the difference that you never seemed to get even though I've typed up walls on it --- I whole heartedly feel that it's a good thing to be desperate about what you really care about and try very hard to achieve it even if only a small spark of hope existed. You instead, think it's something that's worthy of redicule. I've past that age of blind pride/shaming years ago buddy.

    My last reply was basically trying to compromise, ignoring all the differences and all your snark remarks, only commenting on the common agreement, to try to reach an understanding with you. Notice how the tone was rather soft and I kept on saying things like "we've reached agreement"? Well apparently not. Your post is one compilation of baseless insults after another. I mean do you really think saying "so desperate that it's sad" is going to do anything other than perhaps making yourself feel more confident about what you're saying? You surely aren't hoping to convince me by adding that snark remark, and I do think you know better than expecting me to be "scared down" by your hostile attitude (if that's the case, I wouldn't even reply to your very first post). If you're hoping that others who come upon this post saw that line and think "wow this guy is so right because he sounds mean and so very sure of himself" and therefore maintain your tough guy image, I truly think you're underestimating WSC people's intelligence --- and underestimating people's intelligence can backfire, because people would feel insulted, much like in my case when I first replied to your hostile post. Just saying. You're unlikely to change, but I feel I should warn you anyways, it's an obligation to myself.

    Keep it going if you'd like to, I'd keep replying too, and soon enough the mods would close down the thread and/or ban one or both of us. I know better now than to make promises of not replying again, see I've learned my lesson quickly, I lack control in that department so might as well face reality.
  2. calebrus

    calebrus Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'm going to post this again. I think you missed it last time, as you may not have joined the conversation early enough.

    [​IMG]

    In case it wasn't obvious, this is troll food.
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  3. SevenFD

    SevenFD New Cupcake

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    player one and felion need to get married already. lol
  4. Niliana

    Niliana Cupcake

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    I hope it stays p2p, all the other f2p games I've played have little to no substance. :(
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  5. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    He's definitely doing the dishes... :D

    T_T I'm a hazard to myself... Couldn't help but reply back...
  6. Drokk

    Drokk Cupcake-About-Town

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    WildStar will be working on its 11th expansion and they'll still be saying their vows.
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  7. PlayerOne

    PlayerOne Cupcake-About-Town

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    I was waiting for you to start spewing your credentials, you've been dying for an opportunity to do so. Just as you have been dying to use the arguments you learnt in your studies in a discussion somewhere. I doubt it will surprise you to learn that to me academic achievements only mean that the person who holds them is proficient at earning academic achievements and nothing more. There are enough highly qualified morons on this planet to prove that theory, at least to me.

    Talking about definitions, discounting dictionaries and proceeding to link Wikipedia just about sums you up to me, I'm sorry to say.

    For someone so qualified you make the amateur mistake of confusing communication with negotiation. We are communicating. We are not negotiating. We are not trying to find a common ground here. Correct me if I am wrong but this is a discussion forum, I am yet to see any forum labelled as a negotiation forum.

    Personally, I am here enjoying your, and this is just my opinion, nonsensical ramblings, desperation arguments and deliberately warped logic. These are normally the ammo of an average bedroom tryhard, it's interesting to see they are used by the highly educated too. Call me sick but I enjoy watching someone who holds themselves in such high regard and is so proud of their achievements stooping so desperately and pointlessly low.

    One theme that seems to run through your posts is your constant, and I suspect deliberate (it happens way too often to be accidental, surely no one is that dim), habit of making wrong assumptions and basing your whole reply/point on them. Another is that you seem to think that if you say something often enough it'll become true to whoever is reading it. That's something that seems to happen a lot to people who flaunt letters after their name.

    Here's an example:

    Here you do both. You attempt to ram your opinion on the differences between subjective and objective statements down my throat desperate for me to absorb that opinion (as you have obviously done with so many opinions formed by other people in the past) while assuming wrongly that any of my statements have been subjective. They haven't. As I have told you I was asked for an opinion and I gave an opinion. It really is that simple.

    You are falling into the trap of over analysing, another thing I have found as common in people who see themselves as academically superior. What I said was all there was. An opinion on how well this game would survive as Pay-to-Play and why I didn't believe it would survive longer. That's it. Let us not forget that it was you who took exception to my opinions and are, a month or whatever it is now later, still analysing and trying to understand them while most people with nothing more than a very basic education could manage to read, understand and accept what I said.

    You help confirm to me that there is a huge difference between an education and common sense.
  8. Voison

    Voison Moderator • Foxy Cupcake

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    <Mod Tail>
    Okay playerone, you're giving me a headache... You need to stop posting for awhile...
    </Mod Tail>
  9. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I wouldn't take that tack with him, he will just claim censorship and mods playing favorites/fanboy like last time.
  10. Convicted

    Convicted Super Cupcake

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    The original bump was an 8 day gap, he said he doesn't visit here often, would a "temp ban" even be noticed?, doubtful.
  11. Drokk

    Drokk Cupcake-About-Town

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    I takes that long for him to craft his next post.
  12. Fishsticks

    Fishsticks Cupcake-About-Town

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    According to your profile, you're 26.
    Which means you've been "doing research" on this since you were 16.
    Most people finish undergraduate study when they are 21.
    PhD programs typically take between 4-8 years - Six and a half years beyond the bachelor’s degree is actually the median amount of time to get a PhD in engineering in the US. While a PhD in the Humanities (such as say, Communications) typically takes even longer.

    Source: http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf06312/ (also, basic common sense)


    I'm just throwing these out there as stated facts. People can infer what they would like about your argument from the facts I've presented.
  13. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    I've been warned, so I should shut up now about the argument with PlayerOne.

    One point that he has raised though is worthy of clarification to the benefit of everyone including myself (re-thinking concepts is good mental exercise and clarifies the larger view): The difference between communication and negotiation. Communication is OFTEN (not always) the pre-cursor to negotiation, it only requires subjective mutual understanding of both parties and nothing else. The understanding is the goal in and of itself. Whereas in negotiation, the communication is a mean to an end, the end being subjective satisfaction that arises from something other than understanding and agreement. Hence they do not belong to the same "level" or "category". If communication doesn't happen, negotiation can still happen (more on that later). If communication does happen, negotiation doesn't necessarily happen. That alone signifies the difference between them. In our daily use of the word "negotiation", it also refers to the situation where communication is not thorough, either knowingly (tricking the other into a deal only beneficial to one side) or unknowingly (misunderstanding of the deal), in which cases conflicts often arise since it ends up becoming a power play in one way or another.

    Good catch, and suspicions quite justified. Engineering MASc takes 2 years, PhD typically takes 5 years. You can transfer after 1st year of masters to a PhD program right away which would result in 6 years total, but that's not what I did. When I say 10 years of experience, I didn't count my masters studies, since my masters thesis was on speech separation algorithms and signal processing, not directly in communication theories. I did count my PhD years into it though, because, well. That's what PhD students do, research.

    The discrepancy happens here: I'm not 26, I wish I am, but I'm no where near it in fact. I've been registering myself as 26 (give or take a few years) for a while now, mostly without giving it much thought but just don't want to put my real age up there. Just silly little persistences. Didn't think anyone would check up on it, so you caught me off guard there.

    OK, back on topic.

    If its end game content is comparable or better than WoW, given that WoW is subscription based, then Wildstar can certainly go that route too. Because no other Themepark F2P MMOs have been able to come even close to WoW regarding that front, and for some of us there is only so much pure sand-boxing that you can do without getting the ennui.

    At this stage in history when gamers either gew up with mmos or born into this already established genre, I don't think screaming in amazement should be a "bottom line" expectation anymore, it's more like the "holy grail that shall never be reached". You know what they say, you can't experience youth twice, unless you get amnesia. If a game has me screaming in amazement and can keep me screaming in amazement, then it's no longer the $20/month subcription fee we're talking about now, I'm willing to drop 10K on it every year.

    In fact, once reaching a certain age you don't scream in amazement about ANYTHING anymore. But let's don't get into that topic because it is too depressing.

    Those cool ideas that you've talked about though, they may help find the magical balance, in which case they'll be more than just "cool ideas". I'm hoping for that, because Carbine is so sharp on which things to pick up and which things to insist on, that I think they have the potential to strike that balance. Coca Cola doesn't succeed by having as much sugar as they possibly can in the drink, or inventing a whole new chemical, it's that balance of different aspects that supported them for a century. Wildstar is a Themepark with sandbox intentions, it's a big move if you really think about it. It promises the epitome of Themepark glory that hasn't been around since golden WoW days: endgame. At the same time, housing and crafting and warplots are all poking into sandbox features. It is trying to do a LOT, and something of this magnitude hasn't been attempted by other big games in recent years, so I'm very excited to see how these aspects mix.

    Also, I feel we're not giving enough credit to the telegraph system --- it only dawned on me when I started actually playing the game. It is quite clever design honestly, and far reaching. You know how you have the typical using your mouse to turn camera that none-action-combat mmos and GW2 have? The problem with that setup is that you don't feel like you're aiming much even in GW2. A lot of it is still targeted, and aiming basically only applies to 1) circle on the ground 2) melee swing and 3) piercing shot. It doesn't even work completely with piercing shot because you've gotta remember to cancel auto target or the arrow may target the enemy in front and doesn't penetrate through to the enemy at the back. But at the same time cancelling auto target is just gimping yourself. Then you have the cross in the middle FPS style mmos, started with Dragon Nest, then Tera and ESO all had it --- But it was very annoying to constantly have to press a button to access your setup/character/equipment/everything, and having your character standing slightly to the left/right of the centre also feels a little odd (you'll adjust to it, but it's not completely intuitive). After all, the F in FPS stands for first person, and first person was beneficial because the exact aiming was important (i.e. head shot). In mmos where only the hit box counts, third person is just way more advantageous than first person view (i.e. viewing behind the character). But with the telegraph system --- Voila, you can aim, and you can access your other stuff, your character stands perfectly in the middle, all very straight forward. The target system was a staple mmo feature since the dawn of the genre, the cross in the middle system was borrowed from FPS games, so really the telegraph system is a major innovation that very very likely could become a corner stone in the genre years down the line.
  14. Voison

    Voison Moderator • Foxy Cupcake

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    Its called a warning, if he does it again I'll make sure it isn't a "temp ban". Gotta follow rules sadly. :cry:
  15. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love good drama when its not me being affected.

    As far as topic well the market has changed its not 2004 anymore, blizzard themselves said that they wouldn't make another sub based mmo and that the company is moving from subscriptions and it shows how they slowly changing things in wow and adding in F2p hearthstone. Titan will not be sub quite frankly wow is an anomaly in mmos a freak of nature that won't be recreated.

    Take from that what you will.

    And I'm not even keen on F2P but its not going anywhere its hear to stay and eventually take over.
  16. Ilmari

    Ilmari New Cupcake

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    To be fair WoW was successful cause Blizzard made an amazingly huge and immersive world when other companies were still at tetris level...

    Ok am talking Vanilla but <REDACTED> first time I logged in I was liked O M G. And no, imo previous mmo's gave the lead but failed to truly deliver in that respect.

    Finally, gl making a AAA mmo without a big budget...
  17. Ilmari

    Ilmari New Cupcake

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    Agreed!
  18. Ilmari

    Ilmari New Cupcake

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    I have this topic at heart in my own way, so let me hop in and give my views.

    1. F2P's are the early 21st century cancers of the gaming world.

    Clearly (imo) most people appreciating F2P's are super duper casuals who will take forever to get through the game content, people who fail to critically assess what's in front of them, or people with no or little income who don't want to pay a sub.

    a. Super-casu won't realize what the misgivings are, you truly see and feel them when you've been playing enough (e.g. those F2P with cash shop that look awesome early to trigger the desire for people to invest some cash and then are total <REDACTED> later on. It's ok you've paid :p)
    b. Failure to be critical for multiple reasons: fanboyism? not knowing better? tunnel vision? see c.? Many possibilities.
    c. People try to force others to adopt their view on F2P especially the business and the result is @ 90% a piss poor game with a relatively short life.

    Optional:

    ((
    I'll be taking 2 of the so-called super F2P games out there as an example, LOL and Path of Exile.

    LOL: Ridiculously slow development, mainly focused on making "skins" for toons or new OP heroes so people just pay to get their 3 weeks of OP FOTM (yup this is marketing lads and P2W). Moreover there is close to no management (e.g. atrocious players) as the tribunal is akin to being a jew in iran (you're screwed...) since you're basically "judged" by a ten year old behind a screen instead of dealing with some serious and professional customer service. Finally, there's the silly 20 min surrender timing and massive amount of idiots (thanks to no CS) and purpose feeders, so as a solo person you're gonna spend around 50% of your time waiting to actually be part of a "real" game. (no need to come QQ on those statement if you're not happy with them, they're statistically true, there's always minor exceptions...)

    Path of Exile: Could be an awesome game, actually it is somewhat of an awesome game, until you've gone deep enough to realize. The skill tree is huge!! ... Wrong same stuff everywhere, gives you the feeling that you're creating something different but that's mostly an illusion. Gameplay: Totally lacking, basically it makes you feel (in a way) like you're an achiever as mechanics are highly punishing (so you're happy when you progress) but when you look at it closely it's only a number cruncher with one shot kills and really little gameplay. I left a good 6 months ago but really bosses were boring as hell, the only challenge was the game failed coding which creates desynch... Finally the specs, oh yeah gotta re-level a toon to 50. 60, whatever just to use fireball instead of icewhatever, god I feel my gameplay changed totally now! (lol)
    ))


    2. I wouldn't even consider Widlstar as an F2P, I'll run away straight!

    Why do companies even consider P2P??!!

    --> predictable, constant cash flow = you know how much cash you earn each months!

    That in turn means that you kinda know where you're going financially, at least in the short term, so it means:

    - You can set up a true Customer Service;
    - You can hire a team of developers on a more permanent basis (that means not losing talent and knowledge either, which speeds development where necessary);
    - You can get decent servers;
    - Players can ditch their subs anytime = you REALLY put work and effort to keep your players / customers;
    - It's not about "impulse purchase" where the business knows people won't spend cash more than once or twice anyway and the all design is to achieve that (after that get lost!), plus generally if you want to get a good enough deal (e.g. buy IG currency for skins or stuff) 1 impulse purchase equate between 2 to 6 months of a sub anyway...;
    - In short it's not only about short term return on investment and then a nice "who cares? We've made and are still making cash" to gamers / customers.


    Well played Carbine / NCSOFT on allowing gamers to hope for a great game for a long (enough) time. Like many, I'd rather pay a bit and get good quality time. After all the cost is close to a cinema ticket nowadays and I sure will have more than 2 hours of fun for that price!
  19. Dirty Outlaw

    Dirty Outlaw Cupcake-About-Town

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    so you never played EQ then
  20. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Well, your opinion is clearly not shared by many. Especially when you compare it against a significant number of other games that actually did much better in terms of "believable world".

    As for budgets, WoW dwarfed all competition by lucidrous amounts. In 2004 it was larger than many games still are today. WoW's initial $63m was just slightly more than double that of Eq2 ($30m) for example, and completely dwarfed the likes of UO ($50k) and EQ ($350k). The sheer way that budgets have ballooned is exactly why you will never see any kind of true innovation from a AAA developer/game. They cannot afford to take the risk.

    If only your views were educated. :(

    Not really. While there are certainly some of those, its really far from accurate. What is far more accurate is looking at how and why certain demograpghics monetize in those games at all. Its much more inline with people actually finding a game that they actually enjoy playing (for whatever reason) instead of feeling like they should play because they have already bought the box and are invested.

    None of these are true of all f2p. In fact you see the same behavior in many p2p games also. Attempting to lump them all in together tells me you tried one once and now hate all models of that type, or you just spend too much time listening to those who have on forums.

    Yet the tribunal has shown drastic decreases in player toxicity and the like. The tribunal has done what proffessional service could not, for a variety of reasons. On top of which, attempting to call champion rotation p2w (which is incredibly absurd when you look at just how low the attach rate is period) is epically stupid. Essentially every long standing competitive game that actively keeps players engaged does things of this type. Going all the way back to the original Starcraft.

    Which is all "issues" with the game, not with the model. Even then, did you ever stop to think that there are players out there who enjoy the illusion of choice the game presents? How many people enjoy playing the game after all? Because you do not like a game, does not make it bad.


    Actually, the "work hard for the money" is something all business models need to deal with. Many of these companies consider f2p because f2p has a significant number of strengths over p2p. It loses the barrier to entry that is box+sub, especially for those who want to try the game and find that they "can't" for some reason. It also helps alleviate a significant amount of bad word of mouth as people who purchase and then don't like something are much more vocal about it. Not to mention that f2p just allows companies to monetize better. Why would you turn someone down if they are willing to spend $20 a month on your game instead of $15? Why would you willingly tell someone that they can't play with their friend because their friend only wants to spend $5?

    I mean most of those little things you are whining about, like "impulse purchases" are the very things that sub based games actively rely on, where a significant amount of f2p do not. Initial box sales for example! Sub based games monetize whales too, they just do it differently. They do it through additional merchandise (cups, plushies, shirts) and things like conventions.

    And this is exactly why there is so much of this on forums. Hooray for self sustaining bias. We, the hardcore, often do end up paying more in f2p games. Because we are hardcore and want to spend it. If you didn't, then you wouldn't do it. Blaming a company because you have no self control for your hobby is insane. You may as well be campaigning against Wizards of the Coast for supplying you with Magic: The Gathering cards, and DnD books, or Games Workshop with Warhammer models. Hobbies are hobbies. Why do mmo's get a bad wrap when every other one does the same exact thing? Often actually much worse sense mmo's cost to profit ratio is generally speaking rather low.
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