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WoD more of a threat than W* MIGHT think...?

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Spyguy, Jan 3, 2014.

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WoD a Threat?

  1. WoD is huge threat.

    13.4%
  2. Might be a problem.

    18.9%
  3. Not a threat at all.

    36.2%
  4. W* is well aware of this.

    31.5%
  1. Merganser

    Merganser New Cupcake

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    By that definition Dargenus, practically all MMOs are dying. Wildstar will be 'dying' after less than a year.

    Of the MMOs I know, Neverwinter is possibly the most similar to Wildstar. Some of Wildstar's players will be new to the MMO genre (and hopefully the game will be have a good enough difficulty curve to encourage them). Many however will be MMORPG players, and thus poached from current games. A large chunk of said players will come from WoW simply because a large chunk of MMORPG players play WoW due to its sheer population.

    Nostalgia aside, vanilla had a lot of clunky and bad mechanics. Current WoW has some bad mechanics as well, but overall the game has years of experience in improvement. Hopefully Wildstar can build on that platform.
  2. Roadblock

    Roadblock Cupcake-About-Town

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    Other things aside I don't think people realize what a paradigm shift the move to Flexible raid size is yet.
    It will make a bunch of games sticking with fixed raid sizes seem outdated regardless it's coming from a decade old game.

    Now I'm personally willing to take on the extra workload and emotional aggravation that comes from managing a roster around a fixed size (benching players, subbing players in and out, possibly dkp) and all the social repercussions that brings IF the rest of the game brings things to the table that I miss from current gen mmos.

    However look at how recent tweets from WoW devs hint at expanding their flex upper limit to 30 and maybe higher... and suddenly you're not the only mmo on the horizon boasting big raids, there's another established mmo that boasts raids up to 30 or 40 and "if you happen to be missing a few people on x night, no worries we scale the content and loot to the number of people you have".

    Bottomline is Blizzard has a huge budget, they're watching their competition closely and you can be sure they'll do anything they can to "deflate" or "steal their wind".

    I've said this before and I'll say it again, as long as no mmo capitalizes on the age of WoW's engine and starts doing things that they absolutely can't do due without a huge time investment into a WoW 2.0 recode they're a pack of hyenas trying to get morsels out of the lion's mouth after the kill.

    Collision detection, true z-axis, destructible / persistent world changes, stuff like that (not these things literally I'm just giving examples) at the basis of compelling gameplay might trigger a "user migration" of an active player base to another game, if not it's going to be left to creating a new market or feeding on the leftovers.

    Edit in: I also like this show of confidence (that's sarcasm) here http://www.warcry.com/news/view/130400-WildStar-Previews-40-Man-Raid-Mechanics
    Bass was also willing to admit that 40-man raids are something of an experiment in WildStar.
    teh_ninjaneer likes this.
  3. Hundmetall

    Hundmetall New Cupcake

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    WAR had collision detection and it added an extra dimension to the game. An example in PVP is I played as a tank and could physically stop players from crossing a narrow bridge. It was fun gameplay mechanics to literally hold back the enemy. It seems that Everquest Next is trying the route you have suggested of doing things WAR can't such as destructible environments.
  4. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Its a paradigm shift in the same way that Lfr is. It leaves a large number of players extremely unsatisfied because scaling fails. It always has and always will because there is no way to effectively scale a challenge to the number of players involved. It goes against the very competitive nature that Wildstar especially is chasing. Flex raid will be great for those that just want to hop into the game and play with their friends, but it will not (because it can't) give you the sense of accomplishment that comes with "hardmode".


    The things you listed aren't engine limitations, they are things purposefully left out because simply put players are dicks. Your entire post may aswell be an advertisement for EqNext, and as it is, I don't see it holding players. Perhaps I am wrong and time will tell, but as it is everything I have seen about the game screams novelty.
  5. Dargenus

    Dargenus Cupcake-About-Town

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    Interestingly enough, not EVE. If WS never enters a stage where it is keeping subscribers and/or occasionally increasing their number, yes, it will die as well. This is math. If you constantly lose people, you eventually end up with 0...

    I honestly can't think of an MMO off the top of my head besides EVE that is actually doing well, though. GW2, maybe? Rift went F2P and has a tiny amount of people by this point. WAR shut down. SWG shut down. SW:TOR went F2P. SOE model seems to work for them but the games are terrible, but I don't know about their player numbers.

    I'm not sure why this is not the case? Many of these MMO's, (like WAR) did poorly to begin with and then died in ~10 years, but they were, in fact, slowly dying during the process, and eventually did. The fact that this happens a lot doesn't make it not true.
    Which is why WildStar should sell an entire different experience, instead of selling one tiny bit to the hardcores and giving the rest modern WoW #2. WoW may fix its raids all it wants, but the game is still horribly accessible, and that is something WildStar does not at all have to replicate.
  6. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Implying f2p is "doing badly".

    It actually kind of does as that is how these games are designed. They get an initial audience and over time that audience dwindles as the core elements are refined and "edge" players drift away to an experience more fitting their wants/needs. The only way to "grow" is to introduce new experiences. The issue here is its almost inevitably seen as a betrayal by your base (Why did you add housing instead of another raid?!) which means such additions can only be successful if more players join/return than are driven away by such additions. This is a major reason why Eve has been so successful, and why with WoW you see the ebb and flow to such an extent. This is a trend that has been seen/shown going all the way back to the early 90's with muds.

    Accessible != easy.
  7. Roadblock

    Roadblock Cupcake-About-Town

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    I agree with both you guys observations (Livnthedream and Dargenus)
    This is exactly what I was hoping to highlight.

    A game needs character to stand up against WoW, not just some marketable "highlights".

    Blizzard is the victim of their own success, they've shaped their playerbase gradually in such a way that they can only shed players no matter what they do, a game trying to dip into diverse segments to such an extreme that it has become an all-you-can-eat buffet with no cohesive philosophy.

    Plus it keeps moving towards the worst kind of sub model.
    One where (a) cheap to produce trivial content is used as a gate before expensive (in development time) more valuable content (content that requires artists, modelers, programmers to devote man hours to) to artificially extend content life, (b) you don't get 100% of the game for the sub, (c) parts of the game are left in a broken state and instead of improvement they're handled like business opportunities (servers dead? pay for transfer, leveling boring/trivial but still time consuming? pay for premades)
    You can all but predict what will go on the shop next by looking at what has the biggest sales on ebay.
    Powerleveling sells? Why don't we have a piece of that pie? Characters sell? Why don't we have a piece of that pie?
    It used to be they battled against some things because they "weren't good for the game", it's moved to "can we monetize it? ok put it in".

    What I'm saying is, if a company goes back to treating their customers as gamers first, and change the whole experience they have a chance.
    No more wading through an ocean of triviality to get to the 5% of the game that's actually challenging / good.
    Spread the challenge around, make it gradual, not 1-1-1-1-1-1-8-9-10 but 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10.
    Pepper easy content with pockets of hard, make it so it doesn't outright block less skilled (or interested) players but offers superior / faster rewards for those that do want to tackle it, etc.

    I'm just saying that marketing "40man" "housing" and "action combat" is not going to cut it if the game doesn't offer the whole package, that's my opinion anyway.
    Every buzzword you can throw at Blizzard they can throw money and people at it and quickly produce a reasonable facsimile. It's the nature of the beast. Maybe for me and this forum participants the differences are apparent but for the general public it's "tomatoe tomato"
  8. Alex F

    Alex F Cupcake

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    I said the game changed, if you were paying attention. Obviously it has changed because otherwise it wouldn't have survived all these years.

    Yeah so I didn't like vanilla. I know I'm probably "insulting" some people by saying this but vanilla was awful compared to the more evolved WoW from WOTLK. A game needs to be a game, not a second job and it sure felt like a job if you were interested in the competitive aspects of the endgame (PVE, PVP). But in the end it's all about personal taste. So no one is right or wrong here.

    You know what dying is? It's that breif period before death. That being said, how's WoW dying when it has more subs that all the other sub-based MMO competition out there? It's lost subs? Sure. Many? Yes. But it is still on the top of the chart. An MMO dies when it can no longer sustain itself and is forced to shut down. So maybe you meant "it's going to die" and that is inevitably true. WoW is gonna die some day. But it's not dying right now considering the literal meaning of dying.

    Everything is about profit. If you don't make a profit how do you pay your people? How do you support your product? Better yet, who is gonna invest in your project if a good profit is not expected? Sure smaller companies don't aim for WoW's numbers but unfortunately (for them) the MMO market is much more cruel than many other markets considering the pricing is the same and the only thing that really matters is the level of quality. It's hard to reach and mentain that basic level of quality if you can't afford the required manpower to sustan it. But one thing I know for a fact - WoW never expected this number of subs when they launched the game and without the profit that comes with these numbers, do you honestly think they would be on top right now? I don't.

    That would be justice to you, right? The "old" player broke up with WoW cause WoW was such a <REDACTED> "tending" to noobs, and now WoW is sick and dying? WoW has been around for nearly a decade. Who plays a game for a decade witout getting tired? Honestly. People get bored. I mean I'm talking from experience here. No matter how great the game is, no matter how many friends you have in that game's community, at some point you will get bored. I don't think even the Blizzard CEO would blame you if you quit after 5-6-7 years of playing that game. So no, it's not poetic justice, it's just people getting bored.

    If you make a sub-based MMO with a system and theme that is similar to WoW's then yeah, you enter a competition not just with WoW, but with any MMO that has similar stats, whatever your intentions are. And maybe not all MMO players play WoW, but I could venture an educated guess and say many of them played it at some point or another.

    And where would you get your own players considering that MMO fanbase will always go for the most popular game? What get a small number of loyal fans that hang on no matter how much <REDACTED> you throw at them? Those are fanboys, no one likes them. And besides, it didn't work so well for EA who had the same idea (Warhammer fans, Bioware and Star Wars fans), a steady fanbase that would be a safety net if the game is not up to the standards of the MMO-gaming community... and yet, look at their games.

    A given to you and me because it is expected. The Devs, while they envision a quality product when it's ready and in the box to be delivered to you and me, the problem is getting there. Keeping true to the things you promised, keeping the fanbase into a real area of the game's potential instead of letting them hype out an unreal idea of their product and - probably the most important - respecting their deadline and delivering a quality product at the same time. Something I've never seen anyone do.

    People have to understand that WoW was lucky. Their past games did help (Warcraft series) but there was almost no competition for what WoW brought to the MMO market back in 2004-2005. The rest of the MMOs are regarded with much more severe and unpatient eyes today.

    Yes you do need to be modern in general. People are tired of generic things that can be found in other games. Wildstar gets it. Their combat system looks intense and exciting. That's a plus for them and myself, I'm willing to overlook the fact that they have 2 starting areas instead of ... whatever. That's just one example, there are more (housing, paths, et cetera) that's why I'm interested in this game, because they took the things that people enjoy and are trying to spice them up, not re-invent them like a bunch of other MMOs decided to do and ended up holding their peckers and going F2P cause no one would pay a monthly sub.


    Famous last words for quite a few would-be WoW killer MMOs.
  9. Rentah

    Rentah Cupcake-About-Town

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    I'd like to put it this way. If WoD becomes a threat. A real threat. The gaming community is so stupid that it doesnt deserve an advancement like Wildstar anyway. And no, its not because im a fanboy or being butthurt. Its because everyone says that WoW is dead. Its too old. The mechanics are outdated. If people prioritize a game that they "hate" as a community. Then my point is proven.
    Dargenus likes this.
  10. Alex F

    Alex F Cupcake

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    You are not seeing the other side of the coin. What if the game is in such a bad state that in can't compete with an old game with outdated mechanics. And you call everyone who may not like Wildstar, stupid.
    So yeah, I may not know what state your butt is in, but that's fanboy talk there.

    The truth is some people will enjoy Wildstar, some will not find it as entertaining or rewarding and will go back to something familiar (like WoW). That does not make them stupid, it just means they have different tastes.
  11. Deavon

    Deavon Cupcake

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    Somehow I always have to giggle when people say that they still like WoW.

    I remember Sony destroying some good games and everyone was pis toff.
    Now i also remember blizzard doing the same and people constantly talk about it but some how they keep going back to WoW.
    If i can get my hands on the drug im gonna put it in my home made candy and sell it :p
    Dargenus likes this.
  12. Menchi

    Menchi Cupcake-About-Town

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    lol at calling Warlords of Draenor WoD. To me, WoD is already reserved by World of Darkness, if CCP ever actually gets around to finishing it.

    That said, I don't really know what to call Warlords other than WoW 6.0 or whatever number they're on.
  13. Felion

    Felion Cupcake-About-Town

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    First of all, the combat is very different between the games: one is action combat, the other is, well, not. Arguably, combat is still one of the cores of a game, a good combat system is going to act as a buffer should anything not going according to plans.

    Examples: Tera pretty much had combat as its single biggest praise while everyone complained about nearly everything else. Yet it still retains quite a bit of players, many of which complains but will settle for Tera purely because killing mobs by itself can be fun and will suffice in killing some time. Guild Wars 2 is another example, granted it has more things going for it than just combat, but ultimately combat saved a lot of people from leaving sooner.

    Now that aside, as a former hardcore WoW player until the end of Cata, I agree with some of the earlier post in that: 1) Current WoW players likely won't leave WoW and 2) Most people who have left won't go back to WoW unless the expansion is REALLY good. Arguably, Blizzard is not thinking about getting those people back into WoW, they're probably more concerned about keeping the current players in WoW. I won't elaborate on point 1), we all know how it is, there's personal attachment to the long-time game you're playing and unless something seriously go wrong it just doesn't happen. I'll elaborate on point 2) however.

    I've thought about going back to WoW, but consider the daunting task ahead: a lot has been changed, and a lot has been added. The gigantic complex that is WoW has incorporated so many features from so many other games such that while it successfully entertains its current players, locking them into the self-contained world, it's somewhat secluded to anyone who stepped outside the circle. Mini pet combat? All kinds of misc mini games? Monks? I have no idea and I think it'll just be a frustrating experience going back and learning bits and pieces of new information from existing knowledge. Especially given that when I left the game, there's practically nothing in the game that I do not know about --- I expect that level of detail if I go back to the game, but obviously it'll take a while between the progression/gearing as well as all the miscellaneous activities. All for a game that I've time and again risen to the top and explored through and through.

    Also, once you go action combat, it's really, really hard to go back. At least, for me.
    Dargenus likes this.
  14. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    WoD timelines make more sense if you're already ruined by DC Comic's continuity. It's a fantasy interpretation of a poorly understood theoretical concept; I welcome it because the old story was teasingly interesting, but very limited by the game; you only got a paragraph and a few name drops, and then a mission that wasn't very distinct until the last 2 or 3. I really don't get the nostalgia for Warcraft 1 or 2 characters, but if they want to reinvent or reimagine them with the design strides they have, I'm all for trying it.

    I went into Mists of Pandaria expecting a cheesey setting, and was pleasantly surprised by the Mogu, Hozen and Mantid lore and out-populating the Pandaren. I expect to be impressed with WoD.

    Wildstar's Sci-Fi setting means I'll definitely play both without burnout; it'll be so refreshing to be in a technology-rich MMO that doesn't suck with game systems(ToR)
    Syn likes this.
  15. coreymj78

    coreymj78 Cupcake-About-Town

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    Agreed.
  16. MiZTiiX

    MiZTiiX Cupcake

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    people who voted "no threat at all" are very naive... put your fanboyism to the side for 1 second and think logically
  17. Quietus

    Quietus Cupcake

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    But I really don't think World of Darkness will be a threat to Wildstar.
  18. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    World of Darkness products have a habit of getting cancelled, delayed, or turning into vaporware. Which is TOTALLY unfair, considering how interesting the original books are!
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  19. Drokk

    Drokk Cupcake-About-Town

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    I love how the 5th expansion of the most successful mmo ever created is considered the threat to a brand new start-up IP...not he other way around.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  20. ImpactHound

    ImpactHound Cupcake-About-Town

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    They have a track record worth betting on. Although, in a Carbine vs. Blizzard showdown, you're looking at an actual equal matchup since Carbine has 17 former Blizzard devs. No matter what, we the players win and should have something good to play this summer.

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