1. Hey Guest! If you're more than just a WildStar fan and want to keep up on the latest MMO news, reviews and opinion pieces then I'd like to suggest you visit our sister site MMO Central

World PvP server

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Vembumees, Mar 31, 2013.

  1. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Estonia
    Greetings!
    I could probably write a 100k words essay on wPvP, but I will try to make it rather short (SOMEWHAT) and hear opinions about this. Pretty obvious that in a small community like it has now, there will barely be any likeminded individuals, but still would be great to possibly have a small discussion or even get a reply whether this would be possible, from Carbine.
    I've been wanting to get old world PvP, griefing etc experiences back already for years, I've pretty much waited for years to properly experience wPvP in games like I did while in Vanilla wow/tbc and loads of mmorpg's before that. There are loads of reasons why wPvP doesn't exist in games anymore and obviously most of the designs that created the active wPvP community won't be used anymore, probably never, in big themepark mmorpg's these days and forward.
    One thing I do know, that there are a lot of likeminded players out there who would like to start actively world PvP'ing in a good quality mmorpg and right now can't in any games that aren't dated, because the games (or the community, like right now in WoW)) don't support it. I actually thought about starting a "project" to gather tons of "oldschool" players with hardcore wPvP interests in mind to WildStar and to one server. The brick wall for it is having less contested zones than faction zones on any sides. And since Carbine wants to appeal to a lot of these more "oldschool" players, I thought why couldn't Carbine do an experiment and create a specific, just one, server with an unique ruleset - world PvP shard.
    I mean, there will be a lot of people trying the game out and this might be something just one type of group would want or relive. Ruleset would be simple and nothing too hardcore, but it could have quite a big impact on the overall gameplay and community. What I am thinking of would be something like this, but actually, whatever kind of PvP ruleset would be alright, even probably the default, as long as likeminded people would gather to one server. But if it was a custom ruleset, it could be something like this:
    1) You will be PvP flagged in every zone except the starting zones.
    2) You will get warned of the rules before creating a character in the server.
    Hell, I think this would just be enough, especially if the game is designed exactly as the interviews and all kind of deepz info has shown us. This would give us everything for world PvP and the rest should only be handled by the players themselves.
    Honestly, I might be wrong, but I really see no downside to this if it was only one server. All I see is that it could bring a lot of new players who maybe have just been waiting for something like this and bring something more to the table than all the other themeparks, without even having to really add any world PvP gameplay elements to the game, just group likeminded players to one server. It could just be an experiment, a total failure and the server will be low pop and filled with PvE carebears or a completely new experience, which might actually even get bigger than thought.
    This clearly is not for everyone and joining this kind of server should be completely optional and given a warning before joining. But I mean, this could become something good for some type of players and give some good advertisement to the game.
    Of course I don't believe that I will ever see it in WildStar, but just for discussing.
    TLDR: add an experimental wPvP server to the game at release where you can attack opposite faction anywhere in the world, except starting zones.
    TLDR2: wPvP in WS pls
    Afrotech likes this.
  2. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I'm not sure you would really need a special server, like you said just start a 'project' to get wPvPers to all join a regular PvP server and have at it.

    Looking at the region list I would say there are enough contested zones... and don't forget you don't have to be in a contested zone for wPvP, the alliance raiding the barrens (a horde zone) was some of best wPvP I've experienced.

    Edit: I think one area where a lot of MMOs have fallen down with wPvP is in actually fostering a conflict between factions (*looks at TESO and just walks away*). This existed back in Vanilla WoW when horde and alliance players wouldn't be caught dead with each other faction (except on the battlefield) but now it's all shared cities and / or cross-faction groups.

    Fortunately the advertising for WildStar does seem to support the conflict between the factions, I just hope the mechanics and world design do as well.
  3. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Estonia
    Special server would support simply wPvP and let the rare wpvp folks move to their own server without having to know about it via some 3rd party site.
    And as a wpvp perspective, PvP servers aren't really wPvP servers anymore.
    1) Half the world is under blue name protection (PvP flag is automatically off and barely anything turns it on other than attacking, all kinds of systems are already in place and standard so people would not get flagged, what mostly caused people getting flagged in noncontested areas earlier days). Since Carbine wants to try to make people go back to all zones at all kinds of levels, it makes me feel like half the playerbase will be already out of reach for wpvper.
    2) Most of the players who join PvP server actually dislike any kind of wPvP or even just PvP. What I mean by that is, for instance, these days if I take a 5 man well geared good player group and go to that great wall in MoP in most of the servers, I will just be ganking people 5vs20 with only maybe 5 of them even fighting back. That is why I quit from WotLK (well I didn't of course quit just because of that, but I could say I crossed a line on wpvp in the "things left to do in game" list). It is the community. PvP server isn't clear enough anymore and all the "wpvp" players are so divided via those carebear PvP servers that barely anything happens except on 1-2 servers. I'm sure there are at least like 50-100 casual gankers, wpvpers or whatever in every server in WoW. Now imagine if half of those from each server went to a separate wpvp server. And I'm talking about active everyday wpvp, not some kind of a opposite faction city achievement run once in a day.
    3) These days PvP servers stand for "arena/BG servers". No offense meant, I do arena/BG's too (mostly when I do tho that simply means I don't have anything else to do, I would rather "bg" in the open world if I could)

    Why I would want to see experimental wpvp servers would simply just be to see likeminded individuals in one server. In a wpvp server there would be just people who would fight back or search for players to kill around the world instead of running a bg. It wouldn't even need any kind of special rules for that, it could even be a server naem and I think it would get enough job done, at least partly. Just like RP servers. Mostly RP servers are just PvE servers, but they are there to gather likeminded people together into one server. That would be the only purpose for the wPvP server.

    Nah, issue are in a lot of game design features. Vanilla WoW had active wpvp due to a lot of dated designs, for instance:
    1) people had to walk to dungeons and gather there. Meeting stones were some big hotspots up to the point of crossrealm LFD.
    2) game required a lot of open world farming before implementation of dailies
    3)no flying mounts
    4)people had to group more
    5)you had to queue for BG's in open world spots (in vanilla wow)

    There are a bunch of other reasons that made and have made wpvp active without any kind of rewards even in games before wow. Just the removal of a lot of "grind" designs has slowly been destroying world PvP. There is always hate for opposite factions, there doesn't even need to be any lore for it. I mean, a simple example from vanilla WoW felcloth farming. There were like 6 mobs in felwood who had 0.45% drop chance of fel cloth. There were mostly like 10 people farming there from both factions. Obviously the dominating faction got the currency, because there was more food than mouths.
    If you are going for an ore/item/quest mob and killable player runs too and gets it first, there is a high chance that somebody will get hurt if the fight isn't against the odds.

    Now since a lot of elements of rivalry and movement around open world has changed, it is only up for the players. But the only players left in themepark games with the wish to wpvp are as scarce as roleplayers. The rest have already quit and lost hope and are just playing league of legends or something until something promising arrives.
    These days I think a wpvp server would be as necessary for wpvpers as rp servers are for rp'ers. I just think that not a lot of people have not really come up with it.
  4. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    If a lot of the hardcore pvp guilds decide to come to this server then the servers they pick are usually very predictable. They pick the PvP servers by ABC order. That is why Bartz in L2 had guilds from Asherons call and UO on it. Its why Archimonde got taken down for 4-6 days on wow launch because of the mass joining. Rift was kind of a special case. All the guilds picked the ABC order, but then the Oceanics also called it their home server as well, so guilds spread out because of the ridiculous queues during headstart. Want to say it was Briarcliff if that sounds right?
  5. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Estonia
    Yeah, but the thing is, in modern WoW era hardcore PvP guild means instanced PvP guild. That's the issue, now wPvP and PvP hold completely different meanings. These days it doesn't matter if you join the highest populated PvP server. Some low pop PvP server will probably have more wPvP guilds (1-4) than the rank 1 populated PvP server. A lot of guilds might even say that they are wPvP guilds, but they actually aren't.

    I am a player who for instance can spend 5-10 hours daily around the world just fighting other players rather than doing BG's and enjoy that 100x more than any other form of pvp. That's not what a "hardcore PvP guild" these days does unless the guild is especially some kind of gankers or wPvP only guild (which is very rare these days, 0-4 per server, mostly very small sized). So pretty much to find a server with active wpvp these days is as easy as finding a server with active RP in a game with no RP servers.

    As said already, I'm sure this wouldn't get implemented due to lack of popularity (honestly, people barely even ask about wpvp anymore or even look for them in games, because it feels like it's an abadononed gameplay that will never return). But I'm sure just 1 server would help and be enough to revive it.
  6. Acidblood

    Acidblood Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2013
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    True, there have been a lot of changes that have lead to the fall in world PvP (and just activity in the 'world' in general), but I still don't get the whole happy and holding hands in one area only to be at each other throats in another... but then I haven't been married yet either. I do see your point about a specially tagged world PvP server, as you said they would be like RP servers, or even Oceanic servers (still don't think the rule changes are necessary).
    Actually there seem to be quite a few, but they are generally more interested in defined world PvP objectives (with rewards) as opposed to the spontaneous kind you do for fun.
  7. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Estonia
    Yeah I like world PvP objectives and rewards as well, but I already read that they won't have anything like that at release. Otherwise I wouldn't had even bothered thinking about it and would had just happily and naively expected that they will come up with all kinds of genial ideas and give their best to revive wpvp at least somewhat (like swtor). And mostly world PvP events are really sketchy, if they don't give great rewards (lvl cap HQ epix) you will see more world PvP activity absolutely everywhere else in the world except there :D
  8. Avenged

    Avenged Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Even with a very open world for PVP. It is almost impossible to take full advantage of with flying mounts. From the pax chat they said you can get in a mount, and go very fast. I am just alluding to flying mounts. wPvP was actually pretty good on rift. They purposefully did not put flying mounts into the games, and there was a ton of contested zones, portal camping, etc. Was pretty damn fun actually.
  9. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Estonia
    While flying mounts do somewhat ruin world PvP, it mainly just ruins ganking afkers or gives people a chance to escape if they notice you too early or vica versa. Today, problem about wpvp even isn't anymore about any mechanics. The new mmo players just don't want to do it. It's a taboo. MoP actually tried to support wpvp for instance, but the new players just refuse to do it. As I said, you can run in with 5 guys into a group of 20 at a quest hub and you will dominate them because they won't even be fighting you back (mostly). It's not fun, it's just stupid. Killing lvl 10s even feels more rewarding.In a lot of guilds people will just get kicked from the guild for corpsecamping/ganking/etc. People will tell on you if you are in a raiding guild and gank people, whether it's against the rules or not. In a themepark game that invites in WoWplayers, no mechanics will bring back active world PvP, only solution would be bringing the world PvP community together.

    And I don't really know about Rift's wPvP. I stopped playing Rift like I think before ID and was in the biggest pop server in EU and the wPvP was as good as it is now in WoW. I don't recall, but I think I even did get warned for ganking lowbies in a raiding/pvp guild and I just laughed and gquit. I mean I did have a lot of fun fighting 50s at rift events and sometimes have small fights at daily areas, but that was about it. I don't rememeber exact numbers but maybe about 10 hours of wpvp as a rogue gave me only like 150 kills, maybe even less (about 200-300 including lowbies probs). Most of that time I did just have to camp some lowbie hotspots until the cavalry arrived and I had some fun (or just got zerged by some group 2v10). There was some activity in that ID island that I can't remember as well, but that was pretty much just at the event times. There were "wpvp" guilds as well, but I didn't really agree that doing a rift zone event once a day out of 10h BG's was wpvp. Maybe it's better on NA side tho.
    Rift had possibilities for a wpvp community, but it really didn't attract any of that kind of players/added wpvp possibilities too late when the population was already too decayed. Just my speculation.
  10. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Likes Received:
    117
    Trophy Points:
    43
    There are two memories I have of wPvP in vanilla WoW.

    1. Getting ganked by people much higher level than me.
    2. Southshore / Tarren Mill

    One of these was quite fun, the other not so much.

    It should be no surprise that themepark games are avoiding giving players abusable power allowing them to ruin the fun of others. PvP flagging in an area is a power given to the players. Perhaps not a significant one, but as seen in vanilla WoW can be abused in contested areas by griefing people significantly lower level than you.

    The recent solution to this has been giving players their own "open world" to PvP in. ESO has Cyrodil. GW2 has their WvW. Perhaps excuse my ignorance as I only played EVE for a brief time, but even this sandbox game features semi-controlled wPvP where most encounters occur in low-sec space or wormholes. This is intended to give players their desired wPvP without subjecting those uninterested in participating to griefing.

    Honestly I see little value in wPvP in the vanilla WoW sense. It has potential for some exciting random encounters that can even escalate to something more than just a skirmish. I use Southshore / Tarren Mill as my example of this. But it still gives players tools for griefing. And more often than not the average player experience is going to be negative when it comes to wPvP.

    Players are value to a game. You need people to play with, and you need people to play against. Ultimately implementing things that will most likely dissuade more people from playing than invite them in is probably not the best idea. The community of the game is composed of more than just a minority of people that enjoy curbstomping lowbies.
  11. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2013
    Likes Received:
    244
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Bucharest. Romania.
    Wpvp = freedom. I'm not a big fan of it and I don't do it often but I do play on pvp servers because I don't like being limited when and if I want to gank people.
  12. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Likes Received:
    117
    Trophy Points:
    43
    This might come as a shock to you, but you are not entitled to being able to do whatever you want in a game.

    I'm not entirely against wPvP, but I would rather not give players the tools to grief other players.
  13. Chomag

    Chomag Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2013
    Likes Received:
    244
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Bucharest. Romania.
    Which is why there are PVE and PVP servers. If some people are really upset about being griefed, they are very much welcome to play on PVE servers, no one is forcing them to play on PVP ones if they know they can't take it.

    In this case, being a victim or not is a choice. People often make the wrong choice and then whine about it.
    Kataryna likes this.
  14. Nekofest

    Nekofest Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Likes Received:
    117
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Again, people are not entitled to being able to do whatever they want in a game.

    Just because you're on a PvP server doesn't give you the right to walk into a level 20 zone as a level 50 and go around killing all the lowbies.

    Players should not be given the express freedom to unfairly ruin the experience of other players.

    Hence why there need to be restrictions or other mechanics in place to regulate that freedom. Other games employ things like a bounty system or some other forms of punishment for killing people who have no possible chance of fighting back.

    Whatever WildStar will do to handle wPvP is a left to when ever they make official announcements.
  15. Vembumees

    Vembumees Cupcake-About-Town

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2013
    Likes Received:
    63
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Estonia
    Being able to go to a 20 zone as a 50 and go around killing lowbies is already a standard and will be included in WildStar (PvP servers). Announcements how wpvp will be handled have already been done.
  16. Cinderon

    Cinderon New Cupcake

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Yes yes yes yes!

    Viva la world PvP!

    It's the only reason I'm even planning to play WS, so anything that supports or promote the genre is highly welcome from my perspective!

Share This Page