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You get a rez! And you get a rez! And...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Cazargar, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. sharp461

    sharp461 New Cupcake

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    If they do it right (and I think WoW does this but I forget) even if you can vanish and get out of combat doesn't mean you would still be able to rez as the whole group is still technically in combat. I think in WoW in dungeons you can't even release to run back until the fight is over, so a OOC rez would be impossible since your always in combat.
  2. mysticjbyrd

    mysticjbyrd Cupcake-About-Town

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    At 4 minutes you can watch this clicker die, and he has an option to pay gold to res right there!
  3. Grim Fandango

    Grim Fandango Well-Known Cupcake

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    That's, uh, kind of the point, though. If someone survives a bad encounter by vanishing or otherwise dropping aggro and resetting the fight, they can resurrect the rest of the group rather than just sit around waiting for everyone to run back.

    If, instead, you're suggesting that they can do this mid-combat, and that's something not already accounted for in the game (as it would have to be since healers can already resurrect), well, I don't know what to say about that other than it's a non-issue because it *will* be remedied if its not already whether or not everyone has a resurrection ability.
    Neurotic Cucpake likes this.
  4. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    While I party agree with this, we have to be careful on *how* we punish death. Should we punish death by delaying the time they can get back into the game? I do not think that is a good idea. We are here to play, if the game adds a 15 minute delay before I can play again, then the game that the devs so painstakingly made to allow me to play, suddenly is not allowing me to play... That's kind of counter productive in a game.

    I'm not saying there should not be a death penalty, there should be one, but not in the form of a mechanic that delays you in getting back in the game. A gold penalty (repair cost), we could have a stacking debuff that lowers the gold you get from monsters for the duration (more of a gold sink), a buff that reduces the amount of XP you get from monsters (do not die, or you'll just level slower)... Other things that you still want to avoid, but none remove you from play.

    So I'm fine with everyone getting an out of combat rez, so we can get back into the actual game quicker.
  5. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    Sorry but you still have no understanding of balance. If the encounter is done right, it should be balanced around death being bad.....i think 2 in combat rezzes per 20man raid and 4 per 40 man raid should be the limit. So in your example, during the running around phase, if someone dies, you do have a rez for them, if 2 people die, you can rez them both, but any more than that and they stay down. But having 30 people die over the course of a single encounter and simply rezzing them over and over again is completely rubbish in my opinion.

    GW2 is balanced around people constantly dieing, and i do not like that at all. And at the time of me leaving the game, it was one of the main concerns. Zerging bosses is not enjoyable for quite a few people it would seem.
  6. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    What you list there isn't it being "done right," it's being done "in a certain way." There are other ways to do it. You can design an encounter so that only 2 in-combat rezzes are needed, and if so, rezzes should be a very rare and difficult to use ability. Or you can design is to that players can expect large portions of the party to wipe fairly often, in which case in-combat rezzes need to be fairly common and easy. Either works just find and presents the same level of challenge, neither is "right," you just need to design the content and player capabilities around one or the other.

    But what if the people that drop are the healers that have the in-combat rezzes?

    Why? Why is that not just a different sort of challenge, to try and keep as many people up as possible as much of the time as possible? If you let too much of the party fall at once then it can become impossible to get them up without the other players getting killed, but proper rez management can be a very useful gameplay mechanic.

    Like I said, they took out zergging, you can't zerg anymore (well, dungeons, at least).
  7. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    Even GW2 had to tone down on the rez zerging, admitting themselves that it was bad. players hated it. it was not skilled. death should be a huge problem in a raid situation. if you happen to have one of the classes than can battle rez, things might be a bit easier for you. but the fight should be based around no one dieing. a battle rez should be a get out of jail free card. dieing should not be part of the encounter. running around right clicking on ppl and waiting for a timer is not fun gameplay.
    Livnthedream likes this.
  8. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Yes, but now they've fixed it and it works great. Carbine can learn from that lesson and implement it more like GW2 has it now, rather than how they had it at launch.
  9. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I completely disagree. Even in its current state the "dungeon" content sucks in Gw2. Some of the guild bounty stuff is pretty alright, but the rest? Bleh. As Ark said, unless dieing during the fight is part of your guilds strat (sacrificial lamb) you should be punished for losing players. This is why enrage timers of various types are so important.
  10. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Even Molten Forge and Aetherblade Retreat? I think those were both very nifty dungeons.

    Well, you are, it's just not a permanent punishment. I mean, if you start with 40 players, and you need at minimum 30 to press forward against the boss, then killing off half the players during a given sequence would basically end the event, wipe and reset. If, on the other hand, you make it so that everyone can just pop up instantly, then that would make things too easy, zerg and rez-rush. I think there's a reasonable balance to be had though, where you can lose half the players, and then the remaining players need to really struggle to both A. keep the threats occupied so that they don't do anything worse, and B. work to rez the remaining players (which should be a time consuming process), to get the player group back up to full strength. I think that done correctly, this presents a very worthwhile challenge to the players.

    I think that when you have easy and mechanical boss fights, where non-tanks are only really at threat when tanks screw up, and tanks are only really at threat when healers screw up, and so on, you can get away with strategies that are very low risk and everyone survives to the end, but when you have complex action-combat of the sort that Carbine is talking about, where telegraphs are moving all over the place in a chaotic swirl of destruction, you have to assume that players of all types will be dropping constantly, and mechanisms need to be in place to recover from that.
  11. Ico

    Ico Moderator • WSC's Gentle Flower

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    Yeah, you shouldn't really be able to lose 10 players and push on with a boss fight :p, if the content is hard and players are getting wiped out, then a change of strategy is probably called for, or simply more practice at not standing in the red.
  12. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Again, it all depends on how the content is balanced. I get the impression that a lot of you are coming only from how one game does things, and anything different is "wrong." You can design a type of content so that everyone has to stay above 1% HP at all times, and if anyone falls below that the entire thing crumbles instantly, or you can design the content so that falling is practically inevitable from time to time, but through effort and skill a group can recover from even massive casualties and come back form it. Balanced properly towards that goal, either way can be equally fun and challenging, just in different ways.
  13. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    The bolded part is where we disagree. If you build in that kind of room for error from the getgo it takes most of the strategy out of it. There is a reason why games started putting limits to how many times you could brez during encounters. The Gw2 zerg it to win it is an even better example, even if it is skewed by the non trinity garbage. Any fight that has that sort of leeway built into it becomes a joke for any kind of proper teamwork.
  14. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's not so much "room for error" as it is a different sort of challenge. Having it so that one or two mistakes on the part of a few members of a large group can lead to an unrecoverable failure is one type of challenge, I suppose, but having the tools to drag those players back up and get back into the game, even if it takes some skill to pull that off, is a different sort of challenge.

    It's kind of like, if you have a football game (either variety), in which the first team to score wins, then that would be one sort of challenge, and each team would be doing their best to ensure that not a single point was scored by the opposing team. On the other hand, the more traditional method of scoring, where it's just the most points at the end of a time period, allows for comebacks. You can be three scores behind and still manage to recover and pull it out. I think that is challenging too. Ok, you're behind the curve, you're in a bad spot, do you just give up, as you would suggest, or do you fight back and win?

    Recovering from party member deaths should never be easy, but managing it successfully can often be more challenging to those surviving players than just throwing up your hands, accepting that this attempt was a failure, and trying again from scratch.
  15. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I understand where you are coming from but you are forgetting the environment. Every raid boss is just a math problem to solve. Those "comebacks" only occur when <REDACTED> hits the fan, and the majority of the time any good raid leader will know how much time is left and where performance is. Its not like sports where athletes will often pull clutch plays and make stuff happen. Any raid that goes into a fight with built in redundency, especting to fail, is a poor raid. Any fight with built in "make up" time is either easy, or poorly designed.
  16. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    But the problem is, because of the various raids you've played, you consider a player death to automatically be a "failure." It doesn't have to be. It can just be a setback. I mean, would you consider it a "failure" if most of the party fell bellow 50% health at some point during the encounter, but were then healed back to full and carried on? Same thing here, except instead of falling below 50% health, they fall below 0% health. It's not a failure to do things right, it's just an inevitable element of the puzzle that you have to solve.
  17. Risetta

    Risetta New Cupcake

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    I'm just glad as a longtime healer I don't have to stay behind and be the rez b****.
  18. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    so in GW2 you still just right click and stand there doing nothing to rez right? yeah....no thanks. worst system i have used in any mmo i have played, and i have, like most of you, played a lot of mmos. i found it to be the worst part of the dungeon system. IMO, and based on even the GW2 forums, and ofc other forums in general, many ppl agree that it was and still is a terrible system.
  19. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    It's worse than just hitting whatever key you bind to the rez ability on your Priest? I don't see how, at least you don't need to slot it. So far I can't think of any MMO that has a better rezzing system, except maybe Defiance, where you can self-rez once every half hour or so.
  20. Ark

    Ark Cupcake-About-Town

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    no, the better system is not having to rez in combat constantly at all....sheesh, we have been through this. instead of 10-15 ppl standing there right clicking and waiting, they are actively engaging the boss, or actively healing.

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