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You get a rez! And you get a rez! And...

Discussion in 'WildStar General' started by Cazargar, Jun 26, 2013.

  1. Splash

    Splash New Cupcake

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    A healer is a healer; their role is to keep people alive. There is no rezzer in the trinity the last time I checked. The ability to rez people after they die is so unimportant to the overall goal of keeping people alive to begin with that I don't understand why people are upset that healers are not the only ones that can do it. It's out of combat, which is a time that is so irrelevant as to need no argument.

    If they gave the warrior an ability called "Rally" that rezzed everyone within 10 yards for 30 seconds, would that be a rez? Was the DeathKnight in WoW's ability to turn a downed party member into a ghoul, a rez? Yes, but both have limitations and no one complained that they made healers less useful. Healers are meant to prevent death. If you go with the classic priest archtypes the concept of bringing people back to life was either a divine power or seen as necromancy and considered bad. Healer does not equal rezzer. If you really want to limit rezzing to a particular class archtype then it would be your priests, clarics and paladins. It would be your warlocks, necromancers and witchdoctors that would bring corpses back to life.

    At any rate, this is a Sci-fi/fantasy game. I'm a network technician in real life, but I know CPR and how to use a defibrillator; which means I can potentially bring people back from the brink of death. I'm not a Doctor, who'd be the healer and who's job it is to keep people from dying and who can also do CPR and use a defibrillator.
  2. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    So you're saying that if half the party wipes, the remaining half should just be able to finish the fight without them, and the dead half should just lay there doing nothing for the rest of the fight? That doesn't sound like any fun. In-combat rezzing provides a method for bringing everyone back into the fight, so that the people who were killed can continue to contribute to the battle.
  3. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Apparently you do not remember when WoW had ooc rezzes like EQ. They went away because it just reinforces you not needing to get better. Games are not all (nor should be) about fun.
  4. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Blech. You just lost me completely.
    MrDreadful likes this.
  5. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Infinite rezzing has been poor in virtually every game that allowed it. Eq psuedo gets a pass becuase of the harsh death penalty. The correct answer to your question "So you're saying that if half the party wipes, the remaining half should just be able to finish the fight without them, and the dead half should just lay there doing nothing for the rest of the fight" is that they fail to complete the task and wipe, which is as it should be.
  6. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    Blech. No thanks.
  7. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Let me guess, you came from CoH didn't you?
  8. John

    John "That" Cupcake

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    It also devalues the goal of staying alive. If half your group dies, you are doing something wrong. Giving people a endless supply of get of jail free cards only encourages more bad play and removes the incentive to improve.
  9. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    Bolded statement, I hope you are kidding...

    There are ways to punish death, I just do not think that not allowing you to play by having to wait for a healer, or all people having to walk back for 20 mins, and then another 20 mins to get ready again is the way to go...

    We should have really fast health/mana regen out of combat (like GW2), and OOC rezzes for everyone. If the team sucks on a boss, then the penalty is not getting to kill the boss, no progress, and repair bills etc. Adding a "time-out" period will not make people better, it will just bore them to death...

    I'm all for death penalties, just not death penalties that do not allow you to play.
  10. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    No, I am quite serious. That run back time can (and should) be put to good use figuring out why and how you died and what can be done to fix it. If you are taking 20min between pulls then either the dungeon design is poor (possible, but generally unlikely) or your leadership poor. If your only argument for "fast regen and everyone getting to go quicker" is raiding with bads then you really need to re examine who you raid with and what you personally can do to be better.
  11. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    That is also wrong... If people want to take their time to figure out what went wrong, and do better next time, then they can do so. They do not need to be *dead* to do that. They cannot be *forced* to do that by the game keeping them dead either.

    I know where you are trying to get to, but that is not the right way to get to it. Adding boring time-outs to the game will not make the players better. They get better because they want to get better to beat the boss, and progress in the game.

    So death penalties, I'm all for it, and they should be steep. But they should not be in the forms of forced time-outs from the game. It won't make players better either.
  12. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    My original point was that infinite brez is bad. For a while in vanilla WoW (I think it was finally shutdown in 1.5?) you were able to keep one of your healers ooc and basically zerg most of the fights.

    Personally, I see that "forced timeout" as part of the death penalty. One that is as if not more effective than say losing xp (they both work out to effective time lost) and in general can be translated into useful time, further negating the sting of it. I see no reason to remove it altogether. Players will get better if they do not want to die. Its how reinforcement works.

    Now, if you want to argue that you do not like "forced timeouts" then fine, but its just as easy to make that argument about every death penalty.
  13. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I agree as well that infinite brez is bad. Totally agree. If people fail and encounter, they should die, and have to try again, pay repairs, etc. No arguments there.

    I'm just against a death penalty that is against the very nature of the game. We come to this game to play, and then the game does not allow us to play... It's like buying lunch, but then you are not allowed to eat it, until 15 mins later... Kind of weird...

    So sure, go ahead with the death penalties, I just do not think that not allowing people to play will actually help the game. It certainly does not make it better, or add "fun" to it. Personal opinion, of course. Death penalties can take many forms, I just do not think that the typical forms implemented in current MMOs (time-outs) are the best.
  14. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    I disagree. But then I was also used to "time out" as you put it from playing Counter Strike. The timeout was awesome, it allowed you to see what other players saw, how they reacted, for good or ill. It is an amazing learning tool if you treat it as such. I honestly feel that much of the hate towards it is because of how ignorant most players are of what tools they have access to. The sheer number that do not how to use meters effectivly (and in turn misuse them, to the detriment of virtually everyone) is astoundingly high.
  15. Kalmander

    Kalmander Well-Known Cupcake

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    I guess it depends on how they are used. As always, there are no bad tools, just bad implementations. I do not mind time outs either, if they serve a purpose (like the counter strike example, you could see what your team mates were doing). It's just that so many games seem to have pointless time outs, that it just gets in the way of playing. So it would depend on what can be done during that time out.

    Dreaming a little here, I would love if the MMO like Wildstar could get a little picture in picture thing, and show you the last wipe battle from a birds-eye view while you were walking back, or rezzing. If it would show you where people died, or took damage. That would be an awesome use of the time out period for example. Allowing you to see what happened, to learn... It's just that so many games do not offer anything during the time out... Just, a time out... It's just another tool that developers have. Could be bad, or good, depending what they do with it.
  16. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    You can usually get all of that data from meters. Generally much more accurately than you do from looking at video because of the sheer amount of chaos going on. Its why parser tools are so powerful, and arguably a requirement for any good pve. A raid encounter is nothing more than a math problem. Its near impossible to solve it if you do not have the right tools. You can almost always tell the bad players in arguments against them.
  17. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    Maybe if you don't truly understand the fight, but if you do then it can be just as telling as the meters. Meters only yield hard data. Data is worthless without understanding how to interpret it. I see this all the time. People don't know how to read WoWlogs, or they only look at dps for an encounter, etc.. etc.. People that think they know what they are talking about, but don't really have a clue. They are screaming here is the data, but they don't understand it. Its why polls are so dangerous. They are so easy to take out of context.
  18. Livnthedream

    Livnthedream Super Cupcake

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    Besides the fact that most of that is what I just stated, you would very much be wrong. Hard data is the only data that matters. Hard data you can rarely take out of context, especially when that context is provided to you by the fight itself. Attempting to compare polls with meter data is foolish at best.
  19. jackashflash

    jackashflash Cupcake-About-Town

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    Polling in general derp. As much as you have abused numbers in other threads, I think its clear you don't know how to properly interpret them. Knowing how to interpret the data is more important than the data.

    The theory of evolution is a great example. The data was all around for everyone to see, but Darwin interpreted it.
  20. Ohoni

    Ohoni Cupcake-About-Town

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    From EQ, DAoC, CoH, WoW, CO, STO, DCUO, TOR, and GW2. There are a bunch of others that I dabbled in but those are the ones I stuck with for any significant length of time.

    It doesn't devalue staying alive, because while you're up, you can still contribute, while when you fall, you just have to sit there until someone brings you back up, and while they're doing that, they aren't advancing the encounter. There's every incentive to stay up as much as you can, but sometimes that just isn't what will happen. Basically, having full health is better than low health, low health is better than downed, downed is better than dead. Of course you care which one you're in.

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